General Music Chat

Umm, we pretty much tried to wipe out the entire native american race, or 'races'.
How many native americans have you met out in the general populance in your lifetime?

Not like Mexicans or others, but I run into them consistently, and have been friends with several full blooded Native Americans. Then again, the Mexicans don't have SOVEREIGN LAND within America's borders, as Native Americans do!

But your statement above is just wrong.

We didn't try and wipe them out.

As occurred in South America, large percentages of their populations died from European dieases. People try and make out like we just floated in here on boats one day, and subdued all the Indians in a few months and put them on Reservations.

There is a LONG history of European settlers dealing with Native Americans, going on for HUNDREDS OF YEARS!

And Native American tribes had wars amongst "THEMSELVES" LONG BEFORE we ever got here. Some tribes were BRUTAL in their treatment of enemy tribes. This was not a PEACE LOVING land of nature people, that were victimized in their innocence and co-existent lives with other tribes.

Many attempts were made to assimilate them into American Society, starting with George Washington himself. We fought wars with them until the late 1800's. They were given SOVEREIGN Reservations to maintain their cultures and lifestyles... which they do, to this day! They are also American Citizens simultaneously, thanks to an act of Congress in the early 1900's or something.

And European influence on Native Americans lasted a few hundred years.

Compare that with numerous THOUSANDS of years with Jews.

There is NO comparison in history.

But keep looking for one!

Craig has the right answer BY THE HAND OF GOD. PERIOD.

Umm, we pretty much tried to wipe out the entire native american race, or 'races'.
How many native americans have you met out in the general populance in your lifetime?

Not like Mexicans or others, but I run into them consistently, and have been friends with several full blooded Native Americans. Then again, the Mexicans don't have SOVEREIGN LAND within America's borders, as Native Americans do!

But your statement above is just wrong.

We didn't try and wipe them out.

As occurred in South America, large percentages of their populations died from European dieases. People try and make out like we just floated in here on boats one day, and subdued all the Indians in a few months and put them on Reservations.

There is a LONG history of European settlers dealing with Native Americans, going on for HUNDREDS OF YEARS!

And Native American tribes had wars amongst "THEMSELVES" LONG BEFORE we ever got here. Some tribes were BRUTAL in their treatment of enemy tribes. This was not a PEACE LOVING land of nature people, that were victimized in their innocence and co-existent lives with other tribes.

Many attempts were made to assimilate them into American Society, starting with George Washington himself. We fought wars with them until the late 1800's. They were given SOVEREIGN Reservations to maintain their cultures and lifestyles... which they do, to this day! They are also American Citizens simultaneously, thanks to an act of Congress in the early 1900's or something.

And European influence on Native Americans lasted a few hundred years.

Compare that with numerous THOUSANDS of years with Jews.

There is NO comparison in history.

But keep looking for one!

Craig, I could very well be in full agreement with your views, but I'm not going to say.
I was trying to point out that the jews are not alone in history, and that the palestinians are not the only ones who have, or have had, a valid reason to fight or bich about an unwanted occupation.

There may not be an 'even' comparison in history, but there 'are' comparisons.

Also trying to point out that it's hypocritical to wail about israels treatment of palestine, and be fine with how we got this land.
Theyre trying to do the same thing, offering palestinians parcels of land, but they will have none of it, and they do not want to assimilate.

This thread started about support of Israel needing to cease.
Well, it's not going to cease. Ever.
Unless america becomes a muslim, hindu, buddist, or pagan nation, it's not going to cease.

Theres no point in riling each other up about it when everyone 'knows' this.

P.S.
The plan to reform a nation for the jews was in the works as early as WWI.
Balfour Declaration.

I was trying to point out that the jews are not alone in history, and that the palestinians are not the only ones who have, or have had, a valid reason to fight or bich about an unwanted occupation.

There is plenty of suffering to go around, in world history... the same countries change names, and still fight each other over hundreds of years, off and on, because of ancient ethnic hatreds.

But the U.N. offered a TWO STATE solution to the Palestinians and Jewish settlers, from DAY ONE. With the U.N. overseeing Jerusalem itself. The Jews accepted, but the Palestinians rejected it, and went to war against the Jews. When this was over, Israel declared independence in 1948, and immediately following that declaration, Egypt, Iraq, Jordan, Lebanon and Syria together, attacked Israel.

Palestine had it's chance to be recognized and have a sovereign state, side by side, with Israel, from the BEGINNING! They rejected it. Racism, deep hatred of Jews... they rejected it.

And their Arab "brothers" have rejected allowing them to migrate to their own countries... some brothers.

They aren't some poor abused peoples.

Everything they do backfires on them. Israel gained even more territory during the Arab-Israeli war, and kept it, as a buffer zone, to help prevent such an attack, again in the future.

But the Jews are mean, uncooperative and unfair!

Not so.

There may not be an 'even' comparison in history, but there 'are' comparisons.

Korea is the closest I know of. They have been dominated by neighbors who occupied their borders for much of their history. When Japan invaded, they forced them to speak Japanese, made it illegal to speak Korean or practice Korean culture... made them learn Japanese, made them change their names, and stop dressing like Koreans... tried to wipe out their culture and make them Japanese... used them as slave labor, and kept them as second class citizens, etc...

But these types of things have happened MANY TIMES in Jewish history. And to this day, the Holocaust is unprecedented. Trying to wipe out an entire RACE of people off the planet... to make them CEASE TO EXIST!

Why are the Jews so hated?

Why have they ALWAYS been so hated?

Bob ??

Did you miss my "divine intervention" comment ?


I don't believe genetically there is such a thing as "Palestinian".
They are an amalgamation of diverse Arabic peoples.


Someone correct me if I am wrong on this point.

The Turks don't want them because of hamas. I would not be surprised at all if Turkey and Israel signed a treaty just long enough to eliminate Palestine all together.

P.S.
The plan to reform a nation for the jews was in the works as early as WWI.
Balfour Declaration.

Precisely.

And efforts began even before that!

There was a wave of Jewish emmigration from the late 1800's due in part to racism in Russia from the assasination of Alexander II, Czar of Russia. As always, the Jews were used as the scapegoats.

It was one of the first mass waves of immigration in modern times, and is known as "The First Aliyah".

The last place I would expect to find such rabid anti-Semitism is on a music forum, but there it is.

Oh, I know; it’s the same as “I support the troops, but not the war”. “I hate Israel, but not the Jews”.



“The Palestinians have as much right to be PO'd as anyone on the planet. Thier country was ripped from under them & given to a ppl who treated them badly, took thier homes & stripped them of thier jobs. They were forcibly moved into ghettos.”


Actually, there never was any such thing as “Palestine”. It was a Roman bastardization of the word “Philistine”.


http://www.palestinefacts.org/pf_early_ ... origin.php



“There is cause to think that some of the jewish plight was brought upon them by thier own actions.”


“The best thing that happened to them as a ppl was being run out of thier lands, & being forced to live under the rule of other, more civilized ppls, imho. They became civilized by necessity, & began to integrate into societies, to a degree. They always kept themselves separate, though, & this, too, brought a bit of that "plight" down upon them.”



That diatribe could have come from the pen of Dr. Goebbels himself.


Santayana was right. "Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it."

Thanks for the link on Palestine.

I've read this whole discussion. I don't see any rabid antisemitism anywhere. Just a candid discussion with a few off hand remarks.

If you are aware of history as well as you claim you would realize that in the antebellum era ( post WWI ) many of the Jewish merchants whom had international contacts took great advantage of their non Jewish German fellow citizens.
I by no way condone the actions of the German Socialist, many in my family fought against them ( Nazis ) in the second great European conflict.
But the fact remains that some, did in fact, by their actions contribute to the general public's acceptance of the Nazi regime.
No people ( race ) is perfect, nor without those whom prey upon their brothers. And no people can starve the children of another without expecting some backlash in the future.
Just as the unjust amongst our own countrymen would put their gathering of wealth above and beyond the well being of their brethren. So too have the unjust amongst the Jews.
It is a condemnation of the acts of unjust individuals.
Not the Race, nor the Religion.

Americans as a whole are held accountable by many in the world for the actions of our unjust. It is human nature.
The Jewish people, and the non Jewish peoples of Israel can expect no less.
Is that in itself just? NO !
It simply exists as a reality of human nature.

Generalized politically correct buzz words are not helpful in dealing with social issues.
They are the tool of the divisive.

Greed of the unjust amongst all peoples is the issue, not racism.
The love of money is the root of all evil.

So...you would make OURS a theocracy?

US policy is, or certainly SHOULD BE, free from working toward biblical prophesy. 'Twas no hand of god that re-established Israel. It was the US, the UK, & the USSR. It was no miracle at work. It was people making bad decisions that created this modern situation.

It was an act of pure idiocy, & it seems obvious even to me that they were not wanted in any of those three countries, either.

4,000 years of what? Moving around, pissing ppl off to the point that they get ousted or killed & such?

I really don't get you.

Ppl look at the events in Germany in the 30's & 40's, & how they're hated after they've ousted another ppl from thier country, & say "See? This is been thier lot for 4,000 years!"

Bullspit!

Christians have been more responsible for thier "plight" than any other group, Craig, &, yes, I'm including the moslems.

I don't recall reading anywhere that the new world was inundated with any vast number of Spanish jews, either. Odd, that.

There are reasons for ppl to be hated. When they go against the grain of thier host society, there are bound to be repercussions. Yes, it's happened over & over in history. Would you say that it's god's curse, or perhaps something more worldly, like certain attributes that cause them to stand out, or to be other than a pleasing cooperative ppl who contribute to the common good? Or perhaps it's the eternal label of being the ones responsible for the cruel death of Jesus?

They've been made welcome in many parts of the world, and have been living with others just fine, as far as I can tell, except for a few nutcase groups like the nazis, the socialists, the RCC, or the KKK. They've made themselves very wealthy. They've held many a gov't position.

I'd say that things have been going pretty well for them, with those not so few few exceptions, for the last cpl centuries, at the least.

The one thing that hurts them, imho, over & over, is thier tendency to keep themselves apart, & to work only for thier own interests in gov't & business, most often favoring other jews over other ppl of other races, outside thier tight-knit families. Yes, I think I CAN fairly ask questions about whether or not the gov't of Israel is as fair as any other democracy or republic.

You talk about how the Palestinians rejected the "chance to live side by side with them." Would YOU agree to some outside force splitting YOUR country in two? Would YOU agree to live with, say, a socialist gov't ruling in 1/2 the USA? That's how the Palestinians saw it, & they fought it. You would call that fair? If so, you are a bigotted idiot of the first degree.

Israel is the most important ally in the region? They didn't have to be, & wouldn't need to be if the area had been left alone, instead of meddled with in the name of any particular religion.

This ppl has been ousted from countries many times, it is true. Perhaps a huge part of the reason is thier own attitudes & actions, since they believe themselves to be "god's chosen ppl?"

A very taboo thing to say, ain't it? Sounds very anti-semetic. Eh, I can live with that label, although I don't believe it to be true. And I don't see thier history as being any worse than many others.

Mankind has never been all that kind to ANYONE. I have no more sympathy for them than I do many other ppl who have been held down, & that sympathy drops considerably when I see them holding others down.

I,m still waiting for the Black Forest to be returned to my possession. Damn those Romans !!

I'll invite you guys over for a Stag hunt and a rock concert in my Forrest.

Thanks for the link on Palestine.

I've read this whole discussion. I don't see any rabid antisemitism anywhere. Just a candid discussion with a few off hand remarks.

If you are aware of history as well as you claim you would realize that in the antebellum era ( post WWI ) many of the Jewish merchants whom had international contacts took great advantage of their non Jewish German fellow citizens.
I by no way condone the actions of the German Socialist, many in my family fought against them ( Nazis ) in the second great European conflict.
But the fact remains that some, did in fact, by their actions contribute to the general public's acceptance of the Nazi regime.
No people ( race ) is perfect, nor without those whom prey upon their brothers. And no people can starve the children of another without expecting some backlash in the future.
Just as the unjust amongst our own countrymen would put their gathering of wealth above and beyond the well being of their brethren. So too have the unjust amongst the Jews.
It is a condemnation of the acts of unjust individuals.
Not the Race, nor the Religion.

Americans as a whole are held accountable by many in the world for the actions of our unjust. It is human nature.
The Jewish people, and the non Jewish peoples of Israel can expect no less.
Is that in itself just? NO !
It simply exists as a reality of human nature.

Generalized politically correct buzz words are not helpful in dealing with social issues.
They are the tool of the divisive.

Greed of the unjust amongst all peoples is the issue, not racism.
The love of money is the root of all evil.

“If you are aware of history as well as you claim you would realize that in the antebellum era ( post WWI ) many of the Jewish merchants whom had international contacts took great advantage of their non Jewish German fellow citizens.”



You can, of course, prove that statement? Cite the names of these ‘Jewish merchants’?


If you refer to the Rothschilds, the darlings of anti-Semites everywhere, their history is capsulated here:


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rothschild_family



“Generalized politically correct buzz words are not helpful in dealing with social issues.”



Neither is thinly-veiled bigotry disguised as enlightened historical viewpoint.

I,m still waiting for the Black Forest to be returned to my possession. Damn those Romans !!

I'll invite you guys over for a Stag hunt and a rock concert in my Forrest.

That's pretty much what happened to the Palestinians, sans, 62 years ago. I'm glad you can see my point, & thiers.

Well their ya go.

Instead of intellectual realization that not all people are either good or bad, this moron wants names of the guilty parties.

I am a bigot because I say some people of all races are unjust ?

You sir, are a moron.


End of attempt at intellectual conversation.

Gee, 90db, you are about as astute as the average bear, aren't ya?

I love how you are so quick to label ppl without even knowing them.

Get over yourself. Read more about what I & others say before you go throwing out names like "Goebels."

It's pretty obvious you don't know a damned thing about any of us.