General Music Chat

Well, if we left the area to "nature," then there would be no state of Israel, & bob's question would be handilly answered, & nature would take its course without jewish rule.

Are we making Israel an American state or province, here?

Yeah, sans, I said that islamic rule of the area was "a" reason for the Crusades. I should have put the paranthetical clarifier of "excuse" in there, too, cuz you're quite right - the Crusades were more about riches & population control than anything else.

Agreed.
I general don't exclude mankind from "nature" as a point of reference.
As in our "evil nature" or "animal nature" if you prefer.
But that leads to another topic entirely.

I don't know the right answer to all this but I have to say when Israel fly a bunch of US made cobras over to an arab officials' place and rocketed the crap out of it, I was skeptical.

Good thing the arab guy was in the hospital already.

Someone blew that intel/fire mission to hell. lol

If you are going to do, please do it right the 1st time.

I still can't help but wonder who the real villain is, though, sans.

Is it the moslem terrorist, or the j/c who would effectively economically enslave him?

What were those paragons of wisdom thinking when they gave the jews a country that was inhabited & ruled by someone else? Stalin obviously just wanted the jews out of the emerging USSR. What were Churchill's & Truman's reasons for this? It certainly was not a humanitarian decision, or they'd have taken the Palestinians into account, & done something entirely different.

I can't help but think that what they wanted was a base of operations in the area with the largest oil reserves. Hardly a humanitarian decision, if that was the case.

There is good reason to think this, though, when you see how the US took out the Iranian ruler & placed the puppet shah in power, just a decade later.

We thought it was all fine & good as we watched the injustices of that guy, too, just as we do with the present rulers of Israel.

No, I can't say that we're the good guys, by any stretch of the imagination, in our affairs with the middle eatern countries.

How can you defend our actions? "Might = right?" What recourse is left the ppl of the area, than to fight back. They don't have our weaponry & its associated technologies, in spite of thier wealth, because we block them at every turn from obtaining it. If you were in thier shoes, I daresay you'd be doing similar things.

All we can seem to talk about is thier "cowardice" in using terrorist tactics, while we continually ignore those injustices brought upon them for simply living where they live. What are thier options, ladies & gents? To give up? To bow to the more powerful? Is that what YOU would do? Glen? Sans? Craig? Put yourselves in thier shoes. SEE what they see in this mess.

To them, it's pure & simple injustice. They've been meddled with, sanctioned, refused even medical necessities, in the name of US & UK oil needs. They've had thier ancestral enemy given land in thier midst, while some of thier kind have been ripped from rule in thier own country more than once by the west. One of thier countries has recently been invaded & occupied with naught but lies at the root of the reason for the attack.

Do you doubt that they have reason for suspicion, fear, anger, or outrage?

Who really IS in the right, here? Those who wish to be left alone to rule thier own lands, or those who cannot seem to leave them alone, who would rule or remove them any way they can, for the resources under thier soil?

Is it really any wonder to anyone that we have had so many problems with these nations, or with this religion, after our own actions in thier homelands? Prior to these actions, there were damned few problems for centuries between the west & the middle east.

We should be ashamed of what we've done here, for money & its associated power. We certainly have no moral ground to stand on in this quagmire that we have caused.

Prove me wrong. Please! I'd certainly LIKE to be the good guy, but for the life of me, I CAN'T SEE IT!

How can aproximately three million people (Israel's population) hold off a BILLION people (approximate worldwide Musliim population)?

First get some correct figures... between 13 Million and 15 Million Jews worldwide. You can pretty much count all of those to "support" Israel of Jewish populations under siege. Israel has over 5 million Jews and 2.5 million "other".

Currently, the most up to date reports from an American think-tank and PBS have estimated 1.2 to 1.57 billion Muslims populate the world... and despite the average uninformed opinion... its a generally peaceful, even pacifist religion.

In the largest majority-Muslim nation, Indonesia, 74% of respondents agree that terrorist attacks are "never justified" (a substantial decline from the 41% level to which support had risen in March 2004); in Pakistan, that figure is 86%; in Bangladesh, 81%; and in Iran, 80%

So its really difficult to convince as many or MORE Islamists to attack Israel unless they experience first hand the behavior of the Israelis.

It's important to point out Philby is correct, the Nation of Israel is separate from the Jewish Nation or Religion. The nation does not seek the approval of the Religion before making policy, law or decisions.

How can a tiny nation kick their neighbor's asses over and over again? Just give me an answer, the RIGHT ANSWER.

Short answer... Money. Long answer... Superior Firepower. Think Pass of Thermopylae, 480 BC. Persians and Wicker Shields vs Spartans and Iron Weapons.

I think it's funny how Craig would argue against a religiously-based form of gov't, on the one hand, while equating Israel to the jewish faith on the other, & seeing nothing wrong with that. He constantly argues about how moslem nations are held under such strict rule within the parameters of thier religion, but he fails time & again to see the same thing happening in Israel, especially as it applies its rules & policies to those of the moslem faith.

Bob, you want to talk about 4,000 years of jewish "plight." Yes, they have been misused, berated, attacked, hurt for being simply who they are, but by whom? Moslems? Look at the christian history concerning them, too.

Much of the treatment they got from the Egyptians was surely deserved. They brought about the downfall of the Egyptian gov't, through underhanded means & working with the enemy of thier host country. This was why, after Egyptians regained control of thier lands, the jews were enslaved by them in the first place. This was before Moses. The history of the bible, of course, mentions none of this, being written by the jews, themselves. (I have a source around here, someplace, that describes what most likely occurred. I need to go find that, if I'm to continue in this vein...)

There is cause to think that some of the jewish plight was brought upon them by thier own actions. When they were a unified country, back in the day, they were a war-mongering bunch who held no quarter for thier enemies, either. Think of your horror at the antics of present-day moslem extremists, & that's what they were. We like to think of those ppl in the past as being as enlightened & civilized as we are today, but nothing could be further from the truth. Ppl were stoned to the sounds of applause & cheerful laughter quite often.

It took the Romans to begin to force civilized behavior upon them.

The best thing that happened to them as a ppl was being run out of thier lands, & being forced to live under the rule of other, more civilized ppls, imho. They became civilized by necessity, & began to integrate into societies, to a degree. They always kept themselves separate, though, & this, too, brought a bit of that "plight" down upon them.
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It seems to me that some of our leaders have been gearing up for a biblical armaggeddon for nearly a century. It's almost as if they're FORCING it to occur, just to prove the prophesies, a la Jesus' own manipulations of them in his own day.

Personally, I don't want to see it, & I doubt that there are many others who would, considering what the word means to the entire world as we know it.

I give you people credit for talking about a subject considered almost tabu` in the USA.

Quote "America's relationship with Israel is important, but not as important as the lives of America's soldiers," in a posting on the Foreign Policy Web site.

In a 56-page report, the Central Command had written: "The enduring hostilities between Israel and some of its neighbors present distinct challenges to our ability to advance our interests," the CENTCOM report read.

General David Petreas Military Central Command.

Quote " Palestine is not the only occupied territory, Washington's Capitol Hill is also Israeli occupied territory" (James Baker Secretary of state)

Baker in frustration called our congress an extention of the Knesset.

George Washington farewell speech hits the nail on the head on this sabject, for the history buffs a search on the web of said speech will explain.

Nobody's given me the correct reason Israel still exists. It may have something to do with the slogan "Never again." Study your history books and the Bible. Then you might figure it out...

All you can do is be the good guy yourself Phil.
Strive to make good decisions and support the right people as best you can. Those whom manipulate there fellow man's live in evil ways come from all races, all nations, and espouse all or no religion.
This is the way of it.
It would seem to me, often you would generalize too much.
America is neither the good guys or the bad guys.
Neither is Christianity or Islam.
Be a lot easier if life was like an old Saturday afternoon western.
Good guys where white hats, bad guys in black hats, shoot out at high noon, drinks on the house in the saloon at dusk.
(We'd be there to play You and I)

Nobody's given me the correct reason Israel still exists. It may have something to do with the slogan "Never again." Study your history books and the Bible. Then you might figure it out...

You'll hafta elaborate on that one for me, bob. I don't get your question, or the "correct answer."

As far as Israel "still existing," I'd have to say that it's been reinvented by the west. It hadn't existed, before then, as "Israel," for over a millenium. That's what I've gotten from the histories I've read. "Israel" only existed in the hearts & minds of the jewish "race" (with a nod to Craig), but nowhere else, until 1948, when it ceased being "Palestine."

sans, you're quite right. I do tend to generalize a bit, but what can I do but question that which I see? There is no good guy here, as far as I can see. Terrorism isn't the good guy's answer anymore than enslaving ppl is. I just don't see what the Palestinians can do, but sit & hope for some form of justice, but it's pretty obvious that it won't come from the US or Israel or the UK, & christians or other religious groups aren't likely to help outside of thier gov'ts, either.

Our country has come a long way in the treatment of its ppl. It's very disheartening to see it backing the ill treatment of ppl in other countries, but we've been doing that very thing for over half a century, truth be told.

It isn't something that I'd expect from "the best country in the world."

You know...

Your sitting in the United States of America right now.
How do you think that happened?

I do believe that north america was someone elses homeland.
Should you move back to europe, and are you willing to move back to europe?

Europe belonged to the Neanderthals before we killed them off and took their land. We'd all have to move to Africa to actually go home, and that ain't happening for this Michiganian. I was born here, raised here and I own property here so this is MY state now.

LOL

I got dibs on Texas. But I'll share with J Ryan and a few others.
After all its a big state.

I think it's funny how Craig would argue against a religiously-based form of gov't, on the one hand, while equating Israel to the jewish faith on the other, & seeing nothing wrong with that. He constantly argues about how moslem nations are held under such strict rule within the parameters of thier religion, but he fails time & again to see the same thing happening in Israel,

You cannot compare Israel, who has a democratic parliamentary form of government, to the religious theocracies and near dictatorships that surround them. In fact Israel is the only nation in that entire region labeled as "Free" by Freedom House, a freedom watchdog and advocacy group, co-founded by Wendell Willkie and Eleanor Roosevelt in 1941.

And you and Dewy are BOTH wrong about many of your opinions concerning Israel. Government structure in Israel draws from English Common Law, with an emphasis on Civil Rights, but it also incorporates traditional Jewish Law into aspects of it's laws and societal structure. And issues like marriage and divorce, are handled in religious courts, with Jewish, Christian and Muslim Judges represented, as well as Judges of some other faiths.

It is a delicate balance of traditional democracy, and religious law.

But what does ANY of that have to do, with my belief in supporting Israel as our MOST IMPORTANT ALLY in the region?

Much of the treatment they got from the Egyptians was surely deserved.

(...)

. (I have a source around here, someplace, that describes what most likely occurred. I need to go find that, if I'm to continue in this vein...)

Oh, you have a "source" around there somewhere do you?




So...

Jews deserve their fate, do they?

There has NEVER been a people as persecuted as Jewish people. NOWHERE in history, is any comparable experience to be found. These are a people who have been over-run and taken into slavery by various nations TIME AND TIME AND TIME AGAIN! Whole civilizations have tried to WIPE OUT their religion, their history, and with Hitler... their very EXISTENCE! They have been EXPELLED.... EN MASSE, from various countries throughout the world, throughout history. Have you ever seen the same for black people, for example? We know there was slavery. Have you seen EDICTS from government leader BANISHING THEM from entire COUNTRIES. Native Americans, were given huge plots of land throughout the country. It wasn't always the best land, but they were given huge tracks of land... more land than Israel occupies. No one EVICTED THEM from the country altogether... no one forced them into slavery. Blacks were bought as slaves and brought to America, but no one took their culture away from them... no one tried to destroy all traces of their previous existence... no one passed laws making it a crime for them to practice their own religions.... no one tried to MURDER THEM, EN MASSE... to WIPE OUT... their ENTIRE RACE!


Other groups have suffered in history... Blacks, Native Americans, Koreans... sometimes for hundreds of years, but the Jews have endured these assaults on them, for THOUSANDS AND THOUSANDS OF YEARS!!!


No group in history has been so CONSISTENTLY abused, derided, enslaved, assaulted, attempts at extermination, attempts to wipe out their very history and culture...

And NO GROUP IN HISTORY has been so DEDICATED to PRESERVING their history, culture, faith, identity, race and HOMELAND, as have the Jews.

The phrase "NEVER AGAIN!" is PRECISELY right, that Bob eluded to.

The United Nations worked to RE-ESTABLISH desplaced Jews in their HOMELAND, their WELL ESTABLISHED and HISTORIC HOMELAND, right after Hitler's ass was kicked in Germany and the concentration camps liberated.

America defends Israel, and Israel makes the TOUGH CHOICES they do, because of the promise.... NEVER AGAIN!

You have NO IDEA, how many times they have been removed from their homeland, with remnants ALWAYS remaining behind, to reestablish their homeland AGAIN, at a later date, whether it takes a DOZEN years or a THOUSAND YEARS, or even THOUSANDS OF YEARS.

It is the land PROMISED them by God.

It is the ONLY PIECE of REAL ESTATE on "EARTH" where they are allowed to construct their TEMPLE to worship God... a Temple which has been Built and then DESTROYED... TWICE NOW! And which they are WAITING to build a third, which THEY WILL DO, and when they do, they will be under siege by Muslim nations everywhere, because they will have to destroy the Mosque which was conveniently built on the TEMPLE MOUNT, where the Jewish Temple stood, and the ONLY place where it is allowed to be built.

When you see the old orthodox Jews, praying by nodding their heads back and forth toward that old broken down wall in Israel, that is the "Wailing Wall" and they pray for the reestablishment of their Temple, which they have been WAITING to rebuild for 1,940 years now. The wailing wall, is the REMAINS of that ancient temple. But on the Temple Mount, where the temple MUST BE BUILT, there exists now, a Mosque and a Shrine erected by Muslims.

When Jesus walked the Earth, He warned His followers, that the temple would be destroyed again. Jesus Himself was presented in that Temple as a child... brought there for Holy Days and Festivals... it is THAT SAME TEMPLE where he overthrew the tables of the money changers, accusing them of DESECRATING sacred ground, with worldly behaviors.

And sacred, that ground is.

The Jews call the Temple Mount... "God's Footstool".

It is where they have TWICE erected their Temple to God, and will erect a THIRD! One hundred ritual baths have been excavated there, showing how holy and sacred this place was considered to ancient Jews. It was the CENTER of their ENTIRE RELIGIOUS ACTIVITIES!

But Jesus warned His followers, that it would be destroyed... destroyed so completely that they would not see one stone on top of another left standing. This is PRECISELY what occurred in 70CE, 70 something years after Jesus was crucified.

Jesus... the GALILEAN... who was the long awaited Messiah, come to Israel... crucified instead of accepted... 70 years later Rome destroys the Temple during the Siege of Jerusalem... many flee the area, particularly the religious scribes and teachers, many of whom relocate and begin work on the first major WRITTEN Rabbinic Work, The Mishnah, which is in turn, one of the two main parts, of the Talmud.

After the destruction of the Temple, this work was begun in... Galilee.

Centuries later, a new land was discovered, a land that would become one of the most influential Nations in the world... America! And America would be one of Israel's greatest protectors... though a predominantly Christian nation.

Remember how it was discovered by Europeans in the first place?

There was a poem to help you remember...

"In 1492, Columbus sailed the ocean Blue..."

1492.

King Ferdinand and Queen Isabella financed Columbus voyage, where he discovered a "New World". Columbus had set sail on August 3rd of 1492.

But another BIG EVENT had been initiated by Ferdinand and Isabella, just MONTHS before that, now famous, voyage of Columbus.

It occurred just a few months earlier, on March 31st 1492, and is called the "Alhambra Decree", which was an edict issued, EVICTING ALL JEWS from SPAIN.

The Jews... ALL JEWS... were given until July 31st to EVACUATE SPAIN.

Columbus set sail for the NEW WORLD on August 3rd.

JUST THREE DAYS LATER!

The place he found, would later become the most powerful Nation on Earth, and also the country, most influential in protecting a HOMELAND, for Jews the world over, through a resolution of a newly formed body, called... the United Nations.

Israel may benefit greatly from the weapons, aid and protection it gets from America, but don't confuse THIS. with being the reason they have maintained their religion, identity and EXISTENCE for THOUSANDS OF YEARS, despite all the efforts throughout history to DESTROY THEM.

That was not the hand of America... but the Hand of God!

Umm, we pretty much tried to wipe out the entire native american race, or 'races'.
How many native americans have you met out in the general populance in your lifetime?
Yeah, what was left of them were given plots of land.

The spanish did even worse down south of us, for as long as they could.

I just don't see what the native americans can do, but sit & hope for some form of justice, but it's pretty obvious that it won't come from the US

I dont think we should stop aid to Israel.
But I dont think we should turn a blind eye if their doing wrong either.