General Music Chat

Once again, Craig, you make the mistake of equating Israel with the jewish religion. It's a useless argument, when you cannot separate the two.

I am in no way against the ppl of the jewish faith.

I do not like the COUNTRY of Israel, thier GOV'T's actions continue to horrify me, just as much as those by the gov't of Iran, Saudi Arabia, &, yes, the USA, quite often.

That also does not mean that I am against the religion of islam, either, unlike you. Because I don't like many of the actions of the US, it also doesn't mean that I am against the christian faith or secular ppl. If I were to find myself angered & appalled by Italy, I wouldn't necessarily be a Catholics hater, either.

Read the words, man. Don't try to read into them. You are far less insightful than you would give yourself credit for.

Israel does not represent the entire jewish ppl. To think that it does, is both naive & ignorant.

To hate Castro's administration does not equate to hating all Cubans, either.

To be anti-Israel is not to the same as being anti-semetic, & I find the country's gov't to be a racist, human rights abusing, sneaky, conniving entity, that does more harm than good, both in its region, & in the world at large. There is nothing I find redeeming in the country's policies or actions.

I've known, worked with, & befriended ppl of the jewish faith, & found them to be pretty nice ppl, individually, for the most part. I've known some that I disliked a lot, too. That doesn't make me anti-semetic, either.

Yes, Craig, I eat pork, too, & that doesn't make me anti-anything, either. It makes me pro-bacon!

So what are YOU, Craig? A zionist & a jew-lover? That would be a ridiculous thing to say, wouldn't it? Quit making dumbass remarks just to get under the skin of others. It does nothing for your arguments & makes you look foolish & pitifully spiteful to me.

My idea would be to back out. Let them kill each other off then take their shyt.
Doesn't sound very Christ like does it?
Uh well

Yes, Craig, I eat pork, too, & that doesn't make me anti-anything, either. It makes me pro-bacon!

I am pro-bacon. Bacon makes everything taste better!

BACON!

I am pro-bacon. Bacon makes everything taste better!

BACON!

We find ourselves in agreement AGAIN!!!

Once again, Craig, you make the mistake of equating Israel with the jewish religion. It's a useless argument, when you cannot separate the two.

They are effectively insperable.

And the Jewish "religion" is also a Jewish "RACE", a fact which you seem igorant of.

Because I don't like many of the actions of the US, it also doesn't mean that I am against the christian faith or secular ppl. If I were to find myself angered & appalled by Italy, I wouldn't necessarily be a Catholics hater, either.

Wrong analogies.

Try the "Vatican" and "Catholics" and you get SLIGHTLY... only SLIGHTLY closer. How do you think Catholics would feel, if the Pope was forceably removed from the Vatican, and then the Vatican was over-run, destroyed brick by brick, and replaced with a Nightclub?

How do you think Tibetans feel about the invasion of their homeland, and that their spiritual leader, the Dalai Lama, must remain in exile or risk being killed? Think they can freely practice their faith so easily, when their faith is interwined with their homeland, just as the Catholic faith is intertwined with the City-state (virtually a sovereign country) of the Vatican!

The Jews and their homeland and Temple go back thousands of years BEFORE the Vatican's existence.

Read the words, man. Don't try to read into them. You are far less insightful than you would give yourself credit for.

I was jerking your chain Phil.

But also making a point.

Jews have struggled to maintain their EXISTENCE for THOUSANDS OF YEARS now, throughout world history. The hatred they suffer, is not due to the STATE of Israel itself, but grounded in RELIGIOUS BIAS and RACISM.

You don't understand how deeply entrenched hatred of Jewish people is. You really don't. You don't understand their history.

YOU can make a distinction between the STATE of ISRAEL and Jewish PEOPLE... yes you can... but their attackers and abusers DO NOT make this distinction so easily.

They are FIGHTING to maintain their EXISTENCE as a people.

You do not understand much about this at all.

If you understood their history, you would UNDERSTAND THEM! You would understand why the NATION OF ISRAEL is dtermined, now that they FINALLY have their homeland back, why they go to the lengths they do to DEFEND it, and not lose it.... AGAIN!

The Jewish "PEOPLE" are not just a "religion", but a "RACE". You don't seem to understand this either.

They have a tiny plot of land, smaller than Rhode Island, and idiots not even directly involved, want them to give up even MORE than they have, of what LITTLE IS LEFT.

You are on the WRONG SIDE of that fight.

Gee...& I guess that the fact that that land belonged to another ppl at the time Israel was re-established doesn't count for anything at all in your mind, either, does it? You pick & choose your histories very well to back your points, but you also ignore a lot of others, Craig, that affect this situation.

There are an awful lot of jewish ppl who have never seen Israel. It's EASY to separate the two, man! They live all over the world, & they do not necessarily owe any allegiance to the country of Israel, other than through a very old history which, up until the late 40's, was the limit of thier ties to that land.

If being jewish requires you to belong to that particular "race," then how did Sammy Davis, Jr become jewish?

It's a religion. Not a country. If it's also a race, then it's been as muddied as any other on the planet. So what? The race doesn't equal the country, either. There ARE still ppl of other faiths living there, albeit in a 2nd class condition.

You seem to think that that is all well & good.

I do not.

I agree that there are those forces that want them to "give up the little that's left," Craig, but I'm seeing that the little that's left wasn't thiers to lay claim to until 1948. They left &/or lost those lands centuries ago, & the jewish ppl have owned plenty throughout the world even before an entire country was stolen & given to them.

There are still ppl alive that were there at the time of this great injustice, who are angry as hell about the loss of thier country. They've passed that anger to thier children. They have a perfect reason to be angry, & to fight with every fiber of thier being to re-attain what they consider to be thier land. They don't care about the decrees of outsiders who ripped thier land from them. It means nothing to them, other than they can see the fact that some of us feel superior to others, & think we can meddle anywhere we wish on this planet, & get away with it, if we make a simple decree, because our might makes right.

Meanwhile, you keep ignoring how the Palestinians were treated when those others took over the country, & how they're treated to this day. Odd, that.

You also seem to be perfectly willing to ignore how Israel killed innocent Americans in the past, & tried to get our backing by claiming that the deed was done by Egyptian moslems. Odd, that, too.

I fear that our allegiance to Israel is something that is not mutual, by any stretch of the imagination. Yeah, they need us, now, but if ever comes a time that they do not, don't count on thier support. They only want us around to be a shield for them.

You seem to be fighting a new version of the crusades, to hear you speak. I see no need for that.

History has again repeated itself. The land of Israel wasn't thiers the first time they set foot on it, either. The only difference is that they took it by thier own force, the first time. This last time it was done by outside forces, who have been paying for that huge mistake, ever since.

Well this is far too contentious a subject for me to wade in on. Let's just say I don't see any gray area at all as far as who's right, and who's wrong in the middle east situation, but wouldn't even think about elaborating on a music forum.

I agree that there are those forces that want them to "give up the little that's left," Craig, but I'm seeing that the little that's left wasn't thiers to lay claim to until 1948. They left &/or lost those lands centuries ago
.

Yeah... just when did they leave, or lose their land?
Not being cheeky. I'm going to research that one.

p.s.
You're speaking above your station again

Whom did that land "belong to" before the Hebrews left?
The Jewish Nations claim to the land is no more ridiculous than that of the nomadic Arabs.
No more so than our claim on North America.
Oh how about the noble red man, whose society was so advanced they said that no one owned the land of course until they wanted to get paid for it, or claim "white men" stole it ".
How do you steal something that "has no owner"??
Come on guys if your going to use land "ownership" as the crown jewel of any argument you'll just be chasing your tail.
That land was there before mankind existed. It will likely be there when we are gone.
Possession is not 9/10ths of the law of nature.
Strength to hold a possession is 10/10ths of the law of nature:

One question you all need to grapple with is this: How can aproximately three million people (Israel's population) hold off a BILLION people (approximate worldwide Musliim population)? Keep thinking about that question, over and over again...There has to be a reason for this. What is the reason? Have you ever studied history? Do you know about the plight of the Jews for the last approximately 4,000 years? Have you studied the Bible, whether you believe its authenticity or not? Just ponder my question. How on Earth does a tiny state (smaller than Rhode Island) like Israel exist now for well over fifty years surrounded by people who hate them and are hellbent on their destruction? How can a tiny nation kick their neighbor's asses over and over again? Just give me an answer, the RIGHT ANSWER. Later...

Sigh, well I suppose this might tip my hat, but people need to learn how to lose a war gracefully!

You know, america wasnt ours to claim, but here we sit.
Just sayin...

You know, America wasn't ours to claim, but here we sit.
Just saying...

That was my point in a nutshell.
How can a finite physical being claim ownership over anything ??

Bob's post makes for good meditation material.
Surprising a bass player can have such deep thoughts. LOL J/K Bob.

I don't have to say that I believe in divine intervention for the house of David. You guys probably can figure that one on your own.
History will also show how often they have been tested and punished.

Radical Islam does want to convert or kill all infidels.
This is a historical fact.
As unpleasant as this reality is. As difficult of a concept it is to grasp for individuals whom only want to live in peace. This is the way it is. And Israel as a nation, more than anyone else, stand in their way of global conquest.

Zip - The jewish ppl had lost the land of "Israel" before the 1st Crusade, & it didn't return to thier control until 1948. You do the math. (Hint - it's been over a millenium) Islamic control of the area was a reason for the Crusades, & the area bounced back & forth between christian & moslem rule for awhile, but the jews never had it again until it was given them in the middle of the last century.

bob - How do they fend off 1 billion ppl? Through American & UK intervention, which wouldn't have been necessary had the "situation" in the middle east been left alone by the Big Three at the end of WWII.

sans - so in politics, might makes right cuz the laws of nature rule, but nature means nothing when it comes to GLBT ppl being what they're born to be? Where does anyone choose to "follow nature," when it comes to right & wrong? You've confused me on this one with that argulment.
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The Palestinians lost no war when they lost thier land. They didn't give it up freely, either. It was taken by the decree of outside forces, & given to a ppl who turned them into 2nd class citizens. Can you not see how that would piss a ppl off? This happened a mere 62 years ago.

How long did America suffer from Indian uprisings after the "theft" of the largest part of this continent? Well over a hundred years, yet we expect the Palestinians to calmly agree to it all without recourse, & live as the new rulers would have them live. What a ridiculous expectation!

Oh yeah, THEY are the bad guys. Keep telling yourselves that. They are the "baby killers," except the jews have done that sort of thing (the bombings, the sniper shootings, the poisoning of ppl), too, but that's okay, right? Cuz we have to protect them & thier "historical claim" to this land.

Pffft!

Right Phil.
Unfortunately my observations of the function of reality get confused with pro / con arguments as to morality, fairly consistently on here.
I attribute that to the typed communication mode. If we had been speaking directly I doubt you would have interpreted my meaning quite the same.

And if my memory serves me well this morning I believe the historical events being outlined above involved the Ottoman Turks.
Yes ... they were Islamic, yet quite tolerant of religions and governments in their occupied territory as long as tribute and allegiance was paid to the "Empire".
The "Crusades" were nothing short of naked aggression for financial gain on the part of the RCC.
Whom by the way burned many of my people at the stake for our beliefs in Christ Jesus.
Remember Martin Luther??
No offense to the Catholics whom try to live a moral life, yet for the large part of it's history the RCC was not less than the Italian Mob in funny hats. Much the same as most all organizations of mankind.