General Music Chat

Look lads, no-one here on these boards(evil Repubs included) wants to see folks NOT be able to see a Dr.

And maybe somethign major HAS to be done.

But, if you zoom waaay out, and look at the 10,000 foot level,
have you yourself complained about our nations debt?
Have you complained about your kids inheriting the ever-increasing national debt?

You cannot argue that we are basically going to spend money we simply do not have.
Period.

And, I don;t think it takes a rocket scientist, nor a java programmer to understand the danger: the immense danger of expecting/assuming that our Government will actually have our best interests in mind when they amass such huge quantities of wealth to pay for this.(paid out of where btw.increased tax burden(s)?)


Lads, this thing comes down to what I've ALWAYS said: worldview.


Again, if you're ok with this so-called "level playing field", where capitalism is gradually beaten down, and centralized management/redistribution of wealth is considered the ideal/better way, then well, I guess you proceed & vote accordingly.

Corrupt/greedy people will always screw it up.

For example: My wife & I are about to (hopefully) adopt one, if not two Haitian orphans.
When asked by a friend of ours of the pastor who runs this particular orphanage why the Haitian govt is taking so long to process their paperwork for their girl, this fellow replied it's because "the govt(Haiti's) is waiting to see if they will be bribed first."

Another worldview point of departure for many: People like me do not believe that we humans are naturally inclined toward good.
Call me crazy, but um...read the local newspaper if you can stomach it.


ok, I've said enough: and probably made more enemies.

I do believe there can/ought to be a debate had here.
And it's one that ought to center around

1) economics
2) whether or not it's proper to say health care is a RIGHT
3) possible alternative angles to take on the issues facing health delivery
4) a thousand other things

Not in that particular order...

enough
Rich

Personally, Rich, I think that the very best part of any gov't intervention in this matter will be the removal of the price gouging that Americans must accept whenever they see a Dr.

I sincerely hope that this will stop the 2,000+% markup on necessary drugs, the $60 costs for a bandaid at the hospital, the ruin of the finances & careers of so many ppl who are unfortunate enough to get ill or injured in this country.

Ignoring the problems havent' solved them. Indeed. they've gotten worse, at the hands of the terribly greedy & opportunistic jerks who would ruin you for a buck.

Leaving it alone has only resulted in making it worse, & it's time we addressed it for the betterment of all in this country.

A majority of Americans are OPPOSED to this bill.

But the Democrats passed it anyway!

Pardon me while I share some history with you.

The majority of American's were also against:
Civil Rights
Medicare
Social Security
World War 1 & 2

Does that make those topics any less worthy of our investment of time, effort and money? All brought to you by Democrats... should that make them less worthy of our involvement? Leadership is what was required in those times to do what was needed, rather than placate an uninformed or misinformed public.

Now lets look at the first part of that statement... The Majority of American's are opposed to this bill. I cannot disagree with that, or them. I too do not "like" the bill. Let us also consider the inordinate amount of time the MINORITY has had in media to negatively paint "this bill" which didn't exist until about 3 months ago... and is still undergoing modification.

Hell, I could turn folks against organized religion with the air time and paid pundits the opposition to ANY health have shelled out. Lets also consider that people who want MORE reform disagree with this bill... but do not assume they oppose passing SOME reform... including this less than perfect legislation.

But when asked about each component of the bill the majority of American's approve of EACH ITEM! So basically... 70% of everyone hates some imaginary thing called Obamacare which does not exist except as a target for negative publicity. But between 60% to 80% of American's like what is now law depending on which part of it you are talking about.

All of them want it paid for, all of them want the deficit reduced.

Also consider that Proponents of this bill have actually been legislating and reading additional suggestions to see if they are worth the time and cost. They haven't had the luxury of having ONE thing to support and debate point for point against the naysayers. Things have been fluid and contentious. Nonpoints get as much attention as real points do... like Illegal aliens or "can we afford it".

Illegal aliens do not get dealt with in legislation designed to benefit LEGAL citizens. Non point.

"Can we afford this" is a non point from two different angles. We cannot afford to ignore it... and we already pay more than other nations that do it. We pay MORE PER PERSON... not just more overall... per person more than TWICE other industrialized nations.

Now the question is moot, its voted... a bit of reconciliation and Presidential autograph and its Law. Arguing non points is a waste of your valuable time Sir Craig... its beneath you.

Now the question is Do YOU support the American process of Majority Rule... or Mob rule?

Another question... do you believe the experts who crunch these numbers as a daily routine... or do you trust the angry mob shouting epitaphs? Because at the end of the day one of them has to rule.

This is yet another great example of christian charity at work, ain't it? Back up & look at things from another perspective once in awhile.

Christian charity is when a person gives willfully to a cause or person. It's an act of love, as was the case in Acts 2:44-47. When you're threatened with punitives, it's not really an act of love.

There is no charity in paying taxes. It's required on threat of retribution.

If you're looking for a charitable solution, I think a better way to set up a national healthcare system would be to add a line to our tax-forms with an option of contributing. At least then you can have a sense of having given with a spirit of charity, instead of a spirit of self-preservation.

Cheers,
Chris

Sarcasm, Chris. I was speaking of Craig's desire to stomp the aliens & pick & choose who gets care, but I worded it all wrongly cuz I was distracted. Sorry 'bout the confusion.

Yup, Philby I hear ya.
I can agree that the governance of things like greed, corruption etc etc is a noble and worthwhile pursuit.(albeit a tad idealistic in some cases)

I'm probably not even able to intelligently argue for why I am personally feeling not so good about this bill.

Economics aside, I think it's because of the following:
My worldview is such that mandated behaviour, or charity (like another poster so keenly observed), is no charity at all.
It's... well, just a mandate.

Just like I had much uneasiness when Obama was elected for fear of what seemed to be his 'quasi-marxist' paradigm,
I also cannot help but be uneasy about the prospect of a single payer system of health care.

Not sure I can quantify my ..concerns, but they are there.
And they are real.

ps.
Just in case you think I'm a nut job, or don't totally know what Marxism is:

http://www.allaboutphilosophy.org/what-is-marxism-faq.htm


I apologise in advance if this thread forks into a I hate Obama because...rant

Sarcasm, Chris. I was speaking of Craig's desire to stomp the aliens & pick & choose who gets care, but I worded it all wrongly cuz I was distracted. Sorry 'bout the confusion.

^.^

I'm not angry, Craig. I'm laughing.

How the hell can you require illegals to pay into the system??

Well, for the sake of the argument... The same way that it is illegal for criminals to NOT pay taxes on their ill gotten gain. It's how Al Capone and other mafiosi were put in prison.

But THAT is NOT my argument, Phil!

My argument is against the HYPOCRISY of Democrats, not including illegals in a bill on "OUR" health care... it is the DEMOCRATS who did this, and yet are inconsistent in how they approach the issue of illegal immigration, treating them as CITIZENS on the one hand, but as ILLEGALS in this particular case.

Did you not understand my point?

Hey, while we're at it, let's make 'em pay taxes, & get green cards, &...oh, wait a minute...then they wouldn't BE illegals anymore, would they?

Ugh... that's kind of my point Phil. It's gonna sink in, in a minute here. That is PRECISELY how Democrats treat them, as if they are already citizens. So hmm... why the hypocrisy on THIS issue? If you are going to give them all these benefits that should be exclusive to American Citizens... why would you not keep treating them as such, when there is some benefit to the country involved at least... like paying into a TRILLION DOLLAR expense of health care... plus the 144 Billion that has to be approved by Congress EACH YEAR to keep it going (though they left that fact out of their accounting)

I think it's really stupid to bitch about it, though. REALLY stupid.

I'm bitching about the HYPOCRISY of the DEMOCRATIC LEADERSHIP Phil!

It's going to sink in soon here, with a little repetition.

I'm bitching about the HYPOCRISY of the DEMOCRATIC LEADERSHIP Phil!

Pot, meet kettle.

The Republicans hold the record for hypocrites among their ranks.

You might as well complain about all the politicians Craig.

Craig I thought you liked our president? Not that it matters at this point, we are stuck with him til the next election.

Like him as a President? Hell no!

He's ruining the country. He has already TRIPLED the national debt in his first year alone, rather than lowering it. Instead of bringing us to fiscal responsibility, he continues putting the country MORE into debt. He is stripping away our freedoms as we speak. He lies. He continue to lie. Then he lies some more.

He is about to sign into law, the single largest and most expensive SOCIAL program since 1965... maybe in history... and he is doing this in the midst of one of the worst recessions in our nation's history. It's like a family, barely able to feed itself, putting themselves in EVEN GREATER DEBT to put a Hummer in their driveway.

I'm bitching about the HYPOCRISY of the DEMOCRATIC LEADERSHIP Phil!

Pot, meet kettle.

The Republicans hold the record for hypocrites among their ranks.

You might as well complain about all the politicians Craig.

I do complain about most of them.

Let me get your argument straight though...

"So what if I cheat on my wife... lots of people have affairs."

That about sum it up?

Craig I thought you liked our president? Not that it matters at this point, we are stuck with him til the next election.

Like him as a President? Hell no!

He's ruining the country. He has already TRIPLED the national debt in his first year alone, rather than lowering it. Instead of bringing us to fiscal responsibility, he continues putting the country MORE into debt. He is stripping away our freedoms as we speak. He lies. He continue to lie. Then he lies some more.

He is about to sign into law, the single largest and most expensive SOCIAL program since 1965... maybe in history... and he is doing this in the midst of one of the worst recessions in our nation's history. It's like a family, barely able to feed itself, putting themselves in EVEN GREATER DEBT to put a Hummer in their driveway.

> Obama's ruining the country

I'm afraid this country was ruined a long, long time ago (You ever take a look at pop culture within the last 50 years?) He's not doing these things for the purpose of hurting people and being a tyrant, he's doing these things because he thinks it will help. The government isn't in on some giant conspiracy, it's just a bunch of greedy, incompetent, and sometimes well meaning people trying to do their best to run the country.

The problem with this country isn't just the politicians, it's the citizens. We all forget that the government serves it's people, and that we have a right to tear it down if it fails to do so. If times are worse, it's your fault for not doing a god damned thing about it except complaining. A real patriotic american is a revolutionary, not some fatass republicunt that spends all of their time on a music forum whining about their god, their morals, and how the world is getting worse. If you don't like it, get a militia together and take action. Of course, you won't do a god damned thing except whine and complain because you'd piss your pants at the thought of losing your life trying to fight for what you thought was right.

LOL

I DO so love your analogies, Craig!

I could just as easilly counter that it's like a family with barely enough food to eat going into debt so that they may buy a used Beetle so they may get to work to improve thier lives.

Health care hardly equates with a Hummer, when you're talking about Americans being put out on the street, losing thier jobs & even thier ancestral homes because of out of control health care costs.

I also don't think it's that big of a damned deal that "those damned Dems" included illegals in the package. They ARE getting the care now, aren't they? They WILL continue to get it, whether you like it or not, because it would be inhumane to deny any person care who is seriously ill or injured.

A LEGAL alien who has no insurance will also be included, Craig, who hasn't paid one red cent into the program.

I think it's damned funny how you screach at each & every penny paid out for this, while you call for more defense expenditures to save us all from the godless hordes "out there."

It isn't perfect. We get it. Quit crying. Nothing COULD be perfect.

Hypocrisy? LOL

We'll continue to work on this thing until it gets better.

Just don't try to tell me how awful & hypocritical the Dem party is, after the years of Reps calling for the removal of the illegals on the one hand, while the Rep pres's gave them amnesty & citizenship, all while Rep house & congress representatives were found to be having them in thier employment! THERE's some hypocrisy for ya!

DAMN but you can whine & point them pointy fingers, can't ya! For all of your claims of "fairness" I've yet to see a rant about the Rep PARTY from you, yet you do it ALL THE TIME with Dems & "liberals."

The system is broken, Craig. It ain't the Dems fault any more or less than it is the Reps. It's that damned capitalism, again. GREED rules us, Craig, nothing more or less.

Quit beating the Dems for all the world's ills. You sound like a broken record of a petulant child.

Sarcasm, Chris. I was speaking of Craig's desire to stomp the aliens & pick & choose who gets care

Don't put words in my mouth.

Illegals are not covered under this bill that I am aware of Phil. As far as I know, they will get health care, as they do currently.... visiting the emergency room, or paying cash at a public health clinic.

Emergency rooms have to treat patients in serious need, BY FEDERAL LAW, regardless of their ability to pay.

You have taken an argument I made about HYPOCRISY, and turned it into a personal character issue, basically accussing me of a "desire" to refuse health care to illegals, as if I believe they should die on our soil, if they don't have documentation.

How you perceive me, is absolutely stunning to me.

What evidence has convinced you, of my being such a reprobate of poor character?

He's not doing these things for the purpose of hurting people and being a tyrant, he's doing these things because he thinks it will help.

I think that is probably true. I have stated the same thing here in the past.

The problem with this country isn't just the politicians, it's the citizens. We all forget that the government serves it's people, and that we have a right to tear it down if it fails to do so.

Couldn't agree more.

If times are worse, it's your fault for not doing a god damned thing about it except complaining. A real patriotic american is a revolutionary, not some fatass republicunt that spends all of their time on a music forum whining about their god, their morals, and how the world is getting worse.

If you don't like it, get a militia together and take action. Of course, you won't do a god damned thing except whine and complain because you'd piss your pants at the thought of losing your life trying to fight for what you thought was right.

Speak for yourself Cretin.

I don't fear death or pain.

I would WELCOME being rid of this plane for good.

As to armed revolt... Our constitution provides a means for solving our problems with politicians... as you rightly pointed out, it requires Americans caring enough to USE THOSE MEANS. And those means are LEGAL, WITHIN OUR POWER and... NON-VIOLENT.