General Music Chat

"What "has" been proven, only in the last few years, is that gay females, have brains that resemble straight males, rather than straight females. And gay men, have brains that resemble straight females rather than straight males. This is a PHYSICAL REALITY that can, and has been, measured, and here is the key... measured from INFANCY! These tests were done on infants, and then followed up on, as their lives progressed.

Closed case, on "that" aspect."

Unfortunately, that really doesn't "close" the case, at all, Craig. I haven't the time to look it up at the moment, but you've neglected to recognize the very important fact that occasionally they find children with those very qualities that are NOT homo- or bisexual, later in life. There are also those with perfectly normal brain patterns that become homo- or bisexual as they develop. The fact is that it is true for some ppl, perhaps even most, I dunno, but not all.

Also, it doesn't begin to address whether the child-in-question's brain patterns develop in a more normal fashion if they are taught to step into traditional roles by thier parents.

I really don't know that awful much about this, but that which I have read hasn't really convinced me, totally, either way, that nature or nurture causes these diversions from the norm.

I can accept them, either way, really.

Craig, you still haven't answered my question - what bugs you so much about it?

About devoting time and resources (money) toward "etiquette classes" in public schools?

My main problem is that it will result in NO CHANGE in behavior. The ones who would lock onto ETIQUETTE and PRACTICE THEM, would be those who ALREADY HAVE some ethical upbringing behind them, whose parents have already taught them to RESPECT AUTHORITY, to say "Yes sir" and "No ma'am".

That's the first problem.

And secondly, because of the fact, that it would not be successful, the funds are better spent on ACADEMIC EDUCATION that prepares kids for college. Buy more computers. Offer more college prep courses, begin programs that have better ways of teaching kids that MAINTAIN their attention and retention skills, etc...

It's like trying to address SYMPTOMS of a disease, without addressing the DISEASE ITSELF.

There has to be a CULTURAL SHIFT, to even make a dent in this problem.

Religion is one of the best forces to aid in this, and they should COOPERATE for solutions, and also cooperate with groups dedicated to TEACHING ETHICS, even if they are non-religious.

The reason RELIGION has a hand up in this, is that they are often thousands of years old, and have very strong cultural traditions that people, even kids, can latch onto and feel a part of, and especially, that they answer to a HIGHER POWER, so that the feeling incurred, is that it is an ULTIMATE AUTHORITY that judges me, that is wanting me to practice certain behaviors, and not just PARENTS or some other authority, which can more easily be shunned, argued with, etc...

The belief that I am FOLLOWING an ABSOLUTE AUTHORITY, has much more power, than even... "My parents don't want me to do this... but they just don't understand how it is today!"

Your parents can't monitor you 24/7, but an ABSOLUTE HIGHER POWER, "CAN". Speaking for myself as well... I remember as a child, feeling that I wanted to do something I knew was wrong, and I KNEW I could get away with it, but often times, I would be struck by the thought... "My parents can't see me do this... but God can!"... and "sometimes" that was enough, to change my heart on the matter. No one else present, no one to stop me... I stopped myself. As that grew, it wasn't even about... "God will know"... it became "I KNOW", and my conscience couldn't live with it. Not long after, those values, that conscience of mine, became so intertwined with WHO I was, that there was no longer internal division over it at all... I wouldn't even entertain the thought any longer... It was inherent in me, that... "It's wrong"

This is what LIFE ITSELF is about. The design of it. Restricting the evil we can do, by our spirits being CONTAINED in our flesh, in time and space. Our bodies, are the SOIL that our spirits GROW in.

You would have me assume that you know more than you can prove. If the schools are equivalent to "zoos," show me, don't tell me the reasons I can't see it.

Look up the statistics Phil.

School violence has been increasing dramatically since the late 80's.

How many students do you recall shooting schools up in the 50's, 60's, 70's? How many bombs do you recall being brought to schools back then?

This is not a theory or mystery. It is statistical FACT.

No, Craig. I'm no Hindu. I'm a simple beginner buddhist, but that makes no difference in this issue.

Well Buddhism and Hinduism are very related, much in the way that Catholicism and Protestantism is. You would be the Protestant in that scenario.

Richard Gere is a very well known Buddhist. I respect him immensely. He is a very loving and caring individual, and it is clear to me, that his faith has accelerated those traits within him. There are profound lessons within Buddhist teaching and philosophy.

I believe I told you that these lessons in ettiquete had been removed from the scholastic curricullum 50-60 years ago, Craig. It's no wonder that it wasn't in your school. Duh - it wasn't in mine, either. I think I covered that rather extensively. Selective reading, again?

Yeah, I was going a little fast.

Sorry.

I understood you to be saying that Etiquette Lessons had been TAUGHT for about 50 to 60 years, not that it had ENDED 50-60 years ago. Some states have had public schools since the 1800's.

Your eagerness to prove you're right & I'm wrong colors everything you say to the point that nothing can get through to you. All you hear is the voices in your head, & you're way too eager to jump on a sentence & attack it out of context. You should have had those lessons in ettiquette, Craig, because, at least in print, you've become quite the borish individual who seems as though he'd rather be right than happy.

I am far more interested in "BEING RIGHT" than "proving" I am right. I argue forcefully, when I am convinced of something, not to win a battle, but to put my best argument forward, and see what others can do with it. It helps me refine my own beliefs. I actually am PLEASED if someone can defeat my arguments, because it means I have more to think about, and consider. If it is persuasive enough, I change my position, and will start arguing THAT belief forcefully.

It's kind of like using a DEBATE as a SOUNDING BOARD for ideas. The better and stronger the debates, the more likely I find the BEST ANSWER, or the BEST POSITION.

Having lived this way for DECADES, I find that I collect very powerful beliefs and arguments, and do end up being "right" more often than I am "wrong". This tends to piss people off, particularly when their arguments get defeated on a regular basis. It happens not just on public discussion boards, but in my private life. People around me, particularly enjoy, savoring the times when they are right about something, and I am wrong. They rub it in ruthlessly. But they know my heart, so they love me, and they smile while they are doing it. It makes me laugh too, and gives me a red face... but honestly, it doesn't happen very often.



Just to clarify however... I use EVERY TOOL at my disposal to ascertain truth, not just who wins a debate or not. I have to check myself in this regard constantly, because I am a very good debater, and very good at playing devil's advocate... I can usually think of better arguments, against myself, than the people I am debating, so... Winning a debate, does not make something TRUE or NOT TRUE, it is just one tool, in ascertaining what the truth is. I use my head, and my heart. I approach issues intellectually but also spiritually. I consult dictionaries, encyclopedias, books and writings by experts, but also, the Bible, prayer, meditation, other Holy Texts, etc...

Even purely scientific theories can APPEAR to be accurate if kept within the confines of that particular discipline of science. But when compared with OTHER scientific disciplines. it can be shown to be wrong.

An example would be a crossword puzzle. It is possible to have every word in a crossword puzzle, "FIT" together, but every word still be wrong. Someone could think that they had solved the puzzle because all of the words fit perfectly together, but if they find that the definitions or clues provided, don't match one of the words, they have made an error.

It "LOOKED" good, but it wasn't "RIGHT".

And Happiness?

It's hard to say. I ENJOY finding truth, but I also find myself very alone in regards to TRUTH. I find that most people in the world, are far less concerned about truth, than I am, and they would rather prove an AGENDA, than find truth itself. Or they would rather LIVE LIFE as they live it, and TURN OFF, when anything threatens it, cause they are convinced they LIKE life as it is, whether they are right or wrong, whether they hurt others or not, whether they could have a more meaningful and productive life or not. So they are unconcerned, and even FLEE, when information comes into their consciousness, that maybe they should change something about their lives.

Trying to stand PURELY on the side of TRUTH, is a very lonely business.

It is the same loneliness experienced by prophets and by Jesus Himself.

It is EXCEEDINGLY HARD to move the masses toward truth... toward a better way. And it ALWAYS requires the greatest sacrifices to achieve it. Even then, it often takes centuries or even millenia, for the better way, the higher thought, to be embraced by the masses.

Moving humankind forward, is a deliberate, but painfully slow process.

But, is it "selfish" for a student to want to attend a prom with his or her preferred date? Should we be forcing ppl into our traditional roles, or making an example of them when they speak up for themselves? This student did not cause the cancellation of the prom. It was the school board's decision to do that in the face of what they would consider an embarassment, should they allow her to go to the prom in a tux with her gf.

I have no idea what's really right or wrong in this. Obviously, compromise is not the answer.

Yes.
No.
No.

The end.
(Next topic please)

Oh, now, hold on a moment, there, Zip!

If we shouldn't try to force ppl into traditional roles, & shouldn't make an example of them when they speak up for themselves, how is it "selfish" for that person to expect to be allowed to be themselves, to date & attend a dance with thier preferred date? Is this person not simply being herself, dressing as she prefers within the parameters of a fancy event, & taking her personally chosen date? Is that not what the other students attending are doing? How is that selfish?

Don't leave me hangin' here!

It's selfish for any student to want to attend a prom with his or her preferred date.
So of course the first answer is 'Yes'.
It's a selfish desire.

Unselfish would be, "Hey, you kno what? i think I'll ask that 300lb hairy girl to the prom. That would be a nice thing to do."

Perhaps he's afraid that his kids will learn more than he did...

(...)

He doesn't even have a horse in this race, but he desparately wants to ride...

Your statements absolutely break my heart Phil.

You really have no understanding of me as a person, and particularly my heart. I will have to take some time to see whether that is my fault or not.

As to my kids (3 step kids, none of my own) my deepest desire, is that they live BETTER LIVES than me. That they are BETTER PEOPLE, BETTER SPOUSES, BETTER NEIGHBORS, and also that they are MORE SUCCESSFUL in life than me.

My "horse" in this race, is firstly, that MY KIDS, have to endure the school system, and the brutality of kids today. My kids know how to fight, and they are stronger and can hit harder than many 20 year olds I know. After I taught them how to punch, to maximize the force of it, and how to get their body weight into it, we went to go bowling a few weeks later. They had been practicing what I showed them at home. There happened to be a machine there, a game, that measured punching power. They begged me to play it, so I gave them a handful of quarters. I watched from the side, as they not only wiped the floor with the other kids there, but then some 20 and 25 year olds, came up, and challenged them, and they wiped the floor with them too, with the friends of those adults, laughing their asses off, when time and time again, no matter how they tried, they could not top my kids scores.

But the problem is, that I also teach them NOT TO FIGHT!

I teach them that fighting is an ABSOLUTE last resort, for self defense, of the defense of another ONLY.

It is almost like throwing them to the wolves.

On occasions, especially the older son, has had GANGS, attack him in the restrooms, with 4 or 5 kids beating on him... several holding him, while the others delivered blows, or stuck him pens or pencils. He is further targeted, because I have instructed him to report when other kids make threats and have brought weapons to school.

So, my kids alone, give me a "horse" in this race.

But even beyond that, I CARE DEEPLY ABOUT HUMANITY itself. As if they were my own family.... AND THEY ARE! I care about suffering in the world, I care about broken hearts, and broken relationships. I care about people dying unnecessarily, living under tyranny, children who are starving or malnourished.

I care about YOU, more than you seem to understand.

God has given me a deep heart for the suffering of others.

I have had this since childhood.

When I was 12. My step father beat me often, because I was rebellious, but also just for a look, no matter whether I was even aware that I had such a look on my face.

When he left my mother, it was the HAPPIEST day of my life. I knew the beatings would end, and I would get my mother back, who had fallen under his spell... his psychological manipulations.

But after I had heard this wonderful news, I saw tears welling up in my mother's eyes, as she told me. She was devastated.

I gave her a hug, and told her everything would be ok.

And I drew a deep breath, went into the other room, picked up the telephone, and with everything I could muster, I literally BEGGED for this man to return to our family.

I knew what it meant to my life. I knew I would be beaten and psychologically abused again. I knew I would lose my mother again. And I knew that if I begged him, he would return.

Knowing all that, I still called, and readied myself for what I knew would be 6 MORE YEARS of it, if he stayed until I was legally allowed to free myself from it at 18.

He did return.

I did endure it for 6 more years.

And shortly after my 18th birthday, I left in the middle of the night, without telling anyone, and with only my driver's license.

I know as an adult, that bringing him back was not the best thing. But as a child, all that mattered was ending someone else's sadness, despite what it would cost me personally.

I have ALWAYS been able to endure suffering personally, to relieve the suffering of others.

The heart I had at 12, has increased and not diminished, as I have learned that I can suffer more than I thought possible. Many people have hurt me, and taken advantage of my heart, but countless others, have learned something, been helped, and found their way out of the darkness they were in, because I cared enough to do something for them.

Complete strangers tell me the most personal things about their lives, and then say... "I just met you, I can't believe I told you all these things!" But I care. I give them whatever help I can, even if it is just advice, a better way of looking at the situation, strategies for fixing it, or whatever.

God has owned my heart for a VERY LONG TIME now.

I feel disappointed, and even ashamed personally, that you see me as someone so petty, that they would compete with their own children over their own development, and that you see me as someone who is so petty, that they would argue merely for the sake of arguing.... that I am so unconcerned about what the truth really is, that I would stop at nothing, to win an argument, just to "appear" smart or be the "winner".

No one "wins" when the truth gets covered up by selfish motives, or stubborn hearts and minds. I never cheated at games, not even when I was a child. In my heart, I knew that it wasn't true... that it was a lie... I could make people "THINK" I won, but in my heart, would know that it was a lie... that I didn't truly win... just made it LOOK like I did. I would have been cheating someone else out of their victory, and I would be cheating myself by compromising the truth, for the praise of others... an UNDESERVED praise... so I never did it... NOT EVEN ONCE.

What I really am, I fear, doesn't really matter to you. You carry deep burdens from your own life, and the profound mistakes you have made. It is very hard for you to assess your own faults accurately, and you play games with the truth, to avoid guilt, and to maintain the WALLS you have erected in your soul. You are older now, and you are, in very small ways, attempting to correct "some" of this, and perhaps your foray into Buddhism is the first step in that process. I hope so. Because you are a very wounded individual, but you have also wounded others greatly... those who should have been MOST IMPORTANT in your life. Because of the injustices inflicted upon YOU, you have played around with your own sense of blame and guilt... you have JUSTIFIED many evils in your life as a result.

But you can NEVER justify your own actions, by the actions of others.

Right will ALWAYS be right. Wrong will ALWAYS be wrong.

But God knows the difficulty you have had in dealing with your life, and the relationships in your life, and He still LOVES you, and BELIEVES that you can be a force for good, despite decades of mistakes. He cares more about what you can accomplish in your own life, and in the lives of others, FROM HERE ON OUT, than He does about what came before. There is no repairing the past. Only finding a better future.

I feel God's compassion towards you, and I know that you don't feel you deserve compassion. But He "DOES" have compassion for you, in spite of what you have done (which He hasn't told me). And because I feel God's love for you, it makes me love you, and worry about your life.

God has a horse in EVERY race, that involves those He loves... his children.

And God's love flowing through me, gives my heart a horse... even in YOUR race. You can prevent my love and concern accomplishing anything for you in life, but you CANNOT stop me from feeling the love and concern. I am too connected to God. It is very difficult for me to feel something against someone, when I feel His own heart toward that person.

I wish you knew me better.

But it may not matter.

I think this is more about YOU, than about ME.

Hundreds of others, testifying how my love has impacted their lives, is meaningless, to a life that has fought so hard to believe what it "CHOOSES" to believe, to protect themselves from the pain of the real truth.

I have shared my own faults here publicly.

Like everyone, I make mistakes, even of the heart. I would not have shared them, if I worried so much about how I "looked" or if I had some need to appear more than I am. I learned along time ago, that the first step toward "truth" was an honest assessment of MYSELF.

All I "do" hope for, is to be understood as a person who "cares" about others, and who "tries" the best he can, to WORK at being the person my heart hopes I will be some day.

Also, it doesn't begin to address whether the child-in-question's brain patterns develop in a more normal fashion if they are taught to step into traditional roles by thier parents.

This is not merely about brain "patterns", but brain SIZE. The right hemisphere of the brain is LARGER in women, but these findings, now prove that they are LARGER in gay men. The reverse is true for gay women.

The scientists posited some possibilities of "why" this may be the case, but that would be irrelevant where homosexuality is concerned. In other words, there may be an evolutionary reason why SOME women have brains that resemble men, like an elevated need for a "fight or flight" response, which could apply to a specific group of women, in which that response would have afforded them a better chance at survival.

But that would be irrelevant as to this issue. Having a man's brain, would make you think more like a man, relate more like a man, and be attracted to FEMALES as opposed to males.

And vice versa for gay men.

It is powerful evidence that they are BORN with those dispositions, and that it is a case of NATURE and not NURTURE, because no one can increase or decrease their BRAIN SIZE by behavioral modification.

"I remember as a child, feeling that I wanted to do something I knew was wrong, and I KNEW I could get away with it, but often times, I would be struck by the thought... "My parents can't see me do this... but God can!""

That's one approach.

Another would be along the lines of:

"If I do this thing I'm not supposed to do, I'll come back in the next life as a slug!"

Or how about:

"I would be disappointed in myself, if I slipped & did this thing. My teachers, my parents, my friends would too, if they ever found out...& they ALWAYS find out!"

Or how about:

"There is a balance that I must hold to, & doing the wrong thing unbalances me, & causes me to step off the path I would choose for myself, losing my way in life."

There ARE alternative approaches to morality than the Abrahamic guilt trip. There are guilt trips to be had virtually within every religion. There are other ways of being moral, too, but they must be taught to be learned, either the hard way, through trial & error, or by being told & explained to by one who knows.

But I was not talking about teaching morality, Craig. Your religion doesn't really delve into ettiquette as it is applied in western society, & thus, it doesn't teach those lessons, either.

When these lessons are started in the 1st grade, the students want to learn, more often than not. They are eager to do well. You start teaching it here, & you reinforce it as they grow, & expandupon it by showing them how to know which fork to use, how to use a soup spoon, as they get older. They will have more maturity, more of a sense of what they can expect if & when they actually do succeed in life. They'll get to dress well, go to the finer places to eat, & they'll KNOW WHAT TO DO when they get there.

I can see absolutely nothing wrong or wasteful about the teaching of ettiquette in school.

But don't worry. The system would never allow anything that actually helped students to grow & be able to survive right out of school. They all seem to have a huge aversion to that.

Craig, you still haven't answered my question - what bugs you so much about it?

About devoting time and resources (money) toward "etiquette classes" in public schools?

My main problem is that it will result in NO CHANGE in behavior. The ones who would lock onto ETIQUETTE and PRACTICE THEM, would be those who ALREADY HAVE some ethical upbringing behind them, whose parents have already taught them to RESPECT AUTHORITY, to say "Yes sir" and "No ma'am".

That's the first problem.

And secondly, because of the fact, that it would not be successful, the funds are better spent on ACADEMIC EDUCATION that prepares kids for college. Buy more computers. Offer more college prep courses, begin programs that have better ways of teaching kids that MAINTAIN their attention and retention skills, etc...

It's like trying to address SYMPTOMS of a disease, without addressing the DISEASE ITSELF.

There has to be a CULTURAL SHIFT, to even make a dent in this problem.

Religion is one of the best forces to aid in this, and they should COOPERATE for solutions, and also cooperate with groups dedicated to TEACHING ETHICS, even if they are non-religious.

The reason RELIGION has a hand up in this, is that they are often thousands of years old, and have very strong cultural traditions that people, even kids, can latch onto and feel a part of, and especially, that they answer to a HIGHER POWER, so that the feeling incurred, is that it is an ULTIMATE AUTHORITY that judges me, that is wanting me to practice certain behaviors, and not just PARENTS or some other authority, which can more easily be shunned, argued with, etc...

The belief that I am FOLLOWING an ABSOLUTE AUTHORITY, has much more power, than even... "My parents don't want me to do this... but they just don't understand how it is today!"

Your parents can't monitor you 24/7, but an ABSOLUTE HIGHER POWER, "CAN". Speaking for myself as well... I remember as a child, feeling that I wanted to do something I knew was wrong, and I KNEW I could get away with it, but often times, I would be struck by the thought... "My parents can't see me do this... but God can!"... and "sometimes" that was enough, to change my heart on the matter. No one else present, no one to stop me... I stopped myself. As that grew, it wasn't even about... "God will know"... it became "I KNOW", and my conscience couldn't live with it. Not long after, those values, that conscience of mine, became so intertwined with WHO I was, that there was no longer internal division over it at all... I wouldn't even entertain the thought any longer... It was inherent in me, that... "It's wrong"

This is what LIFE ITSELF is about. The design of it. Restricting the evil we can do, by our spirits being CONTAINED in our flesh, in time and space. Our bodies, are the SOIL that our spirits GROW in.

You would have me assume that you know more than you can prove. If the schools are equivalent to "zoos," show me, don't tell me the reasons I can't see it.

Look up the statistics Phil.

School violence has been increasing dramatically since the late 80's.

How many students do you recall shooting schools up in the 50's, 60's, 70's? How many bombs do you recall being brought to schools back then?

This is not a theory or mystery. It is statistical FACT.

No, Craig. I'm no Hindu. I'm a simple beginner buddhist, but that makes no difference in this issue.

Well Buddhism and Hinduism are very related, much in the way that Catholicism and Protestantism is. You would be the Protestant in that scenario.

Richard Gere is a very well known Buddhist. I respect him immensely. He is a very loving and caring individual, and it is clear to me, that his faith has accelerated those traits within him. There are profound lessons within Buddhist teaching and philosophy.

I believe I told you that these lessons in ettiquete had been removed from the scholastic curricullum 50-60 years ago, Craig. It's no wonder that it wasn't in your school. Duh - it wasn't in mine, either. I think I covered that rather extensively. Selective reading, again?

Yeah, I was going a little fast.

Sorry.

I understood you to be saying that Etiquette Lessons had been TAUGHT for about 50 to 60 years, not that it had ENDED 50-60 years ago. Some states have had public schools since the 1800's.

Your eagerness to prove you're right & I'm wrong colors everything you say to the point that nothing can get through to you. All you hear is the voices in your head, & you're way too eager to jump on a sentence & attack it out of context. You should have had those lessons in ettiquette, Craig, because, at least in print, you've become quite the borish individual who seems as though he'd rather be right than happy.

I am far more interested in "BEING RIGHT" than "proving" I am right. I argue forcefully, when I am convinced of something, not to win a battle, but to put my best argument forward, and see what others can do with it. It helps me refine my own beliefs. I actually am PLEASED if someone can defeat my arguments, because it means I have more to think about, and consider. If it is persuasive enough, I change my position, and will start arguing THAT belief forcefully.

It's kind of like using a DEBATE as a SOUNDING BOARD for ideas. The better and stronger the debates, the more likely I find the BEST ANSWER, or the BEST POSITION.

Having lived this way for DECADES, I find that I collect very powerful beliefs and arguments, and do end up being "right" more often than I am "wrong". This tends to piss people off, particularly when their arguments get defeated on a regular basis. It happens not just on public discussion boards, but in my private life. People around me, particularly enjoy, savoring the times when they are right about something, and I am wrong. They rub it in ruthlessly. But they know my heart, so they love me, and they smile while they are doing it. It makes me laugh too, and gives me a red face... but honestly, it doesn't happen very often.



Just to clarify however... I use EVERY TOOL at my disposal to ascertain truth, not just who wins a debate or not. I have to check myself in this regard constantly, because I am a very good debater, and very good at playing devil's advocate... I can usually think of better arguments, against myself, than the people I am debating, so... Winning a debate, does not make something TRUE or NOT TRUE, it is just one tool, in ascertaining what the truth is. I use my head, and my heart. I approach issues intellectually but also spiritually. I consult dictionaries, encyclopedias, books and writings by experts, but also, the Bible, prayer, meditation, other Holy Texts, etc...

Even purely scientific theories can APPEAR to be accurate if kept within the confines of that particular discipline of science. But when compared with OTHER scientific disciplines. it can be shown to be wrong.

An example would be a crossword puzzle. It is possible to have every word in a crossword puzzle, "FIT" together, but every word still be wrong. Someone could think that they had solved the puzzle because all of the words fit perfectly together, but if they find that the definitions or clues provided, don't match one of the words, they have made an error.

It "LOOKED" good, but it wasn't "RIGHT".

And Happiness?

It's hard to say. I ENJOY finding truth, but I also find myself very alone in regards to TRUTH. I find that most people in the world, are far less concerned about truth, than I am, and they would rather prove an AGENDA, than find truth itself. Or they would rather LIVE LIFE as they live it, and TURN OFF, when anything threatens it, cause they are convinced they LIKE life as it is, whether they are right or wrong, whether they hurt others or not, whether they could have a more meaningful and productive life or not. So they are unconcerned, and even FLEE, when information comes into their consciousness, that maybe they should change something about their lives.

Trying to stand PURELY on the side of TRUTH, is a very lonely business.

It is the same loneliness experienced by prophets and by Jesus Himself.

It is EXCEEDINGLY HARD to move the masses toward truth... toward a better way. And it ALWAYS requires the greatest sacrifices to achieve it. Even then, it often takes centuries or even millenia, for the better way, the higher thought, to be embraced by the masses.

Moving humankind forward, is a deliberate, but painfully slow process.

School violence isn't a result of degrading morals, it's a result of idiocy. Maybe if parents raised kids to accept people that dress different than them, then there wouldn't be any shootings. Notice how most school shootings are either done by young "goth". "metalhead", or otherwise introverted kids? They get shat on for dressing differently and listening to different music. The reason for this is that these forms of dress are associated with evil, the devil, and other negative stigma. Of course, we know that most people that dress that way are rarely involved with satanism or other "disturbing rituals", or if they are, are doing so because they've been neglected by their parents and alienated from their peers at a young age. So, what happens when you take a lonely child, some black clothes, and a society that generally is unaccepting of such things? You either get a suicide, a murder, or both. I myself, almost stabbed a kid with a sculpting knife when I was in middle school because he, as well as other kids, picked on me because I liked heavy metal, rock, and wore black a lot. I never did it because I didn't want to go to an asylum, and I luckily started to accumulate a group of friends. I did beat up a kid who saw other kids making fun of me and decided to join in. It wasn't because I was "immoral" or "evil". It was because I was upset, stressed, and they kept adding and adding to it.

In other words, the problem isn't decaying morality, it's a significant increase in ignorance and idiocy in our country. If people were raised to be more inquisitive and open minded, we would have much less violence amongst younger people.

I think this is something you should watch, and think about: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q8S_ptdz2Cc

"Well Buddhism and Hinduism are very related, much in the way that Catholicism and Protestantism is. You would be the Protestant in that scenario."

Um...where'd you come up with this one?

Most of the things you mention Phil, are FAITH-BASED values, taught by RELIGIONS. I specified that there is a needed role for RELIGION (I didn't specify any one in particular) and I used "RELIGION" as the term for a reason. MOST RELIGIONS teach practical rules of morality to live by. As I said, I would like to see ALL RELIGIONS, cooperating together for the BETTERMENT of the world. Behaviors of children, encouraging parents to take more of a role in their kids lives... even poverty-related issues, there are many things that religions could work on TOGETHER, as opposed to only individual religions, or groups within those religions, making a difference mostly in smaller ways, and sometimes primarily as an outreach tool, rather than for the simple good of HELPING OTHERS.

Even "shame" is more of a religious motivation, than anything else. It involves a sense of embarrassment, resulting from the JUDGEMENT of others. Without a CLEAR set of morals, that are WIDELY ACCEPTED, where does the embarrassment come from?

Asian cultures are big on avoiding bringing shame to their own families. This can be helpful, but it is better when SOCIETY accepts those same values, even just a few main ones. And what if the family has few values, or dubious ones? Religion helps, by promoting the concept that certain values are ABSOLUTE, and above the MOOD of public opinion.

In any event, I understood you are talking about ETIQUETTE and not MORALITY. But it is the LACK OF MORALITY that is the REAL PROBLEM here, and why I felt compelled to mention that SCIENCE cannot handle these issues.

Think about it.

Most religions emphasize TRUTH, HONESTY, COMPASSION FOR OTHERS, FAITHFULNESS, HONORING COMMITMENTS, UNSELFISHNESS, etc...

Imagine if Wall Street Bankers practiced those?

Imagine if politicians practiced those?

Imagine if children grew up seeing THOSE values being more pervasive in society, than GREED, FAME, WEALTH, BEATING RAPS WITH GOOD LAWYERS, GLAMOUR, etc... being the over-riding values, keeping people "on top".

There is a MORAL PROBLEM in our country.

It is SELFISHNESS, the basis of IMMORALITY, that causes people to do harm to others, for their own personal gain.

But whatever...

The best way to learn values that ORIGINATED in religion, is from the RELIGIONS who have preached and practiced them for THOUSANDS of years, and built up entire communities and cultures where they are valued, and supported by entire communities.

It's pretty lame to steal the best that religion has to offer, and then pretend these ideas would have developed outside of the religions that practiced them and taught them, and then to trash religion as useless, when the majority of anything, society would call "good" came from them in the first place.

It's like having a singing coach that spent YEARS developing your talent, taught you everything you know, and when you made it, you declared that you would have been just as successful without all the help, and that come to think of it... that instructor is pretty useless as a coach anyway, and you know.... we would have probably all been far better singers WITHOUT the existence of vocal coaches to begin with!

ssdd in the puddle of mud we know as bandmix forums.. lol


MUAH~!

"Well Buddhism and Hinduism are very related, much in the way that Catholicism and Protestantism is. You would be the Protestant in that scenario."

Um...where'd you come up with this one?

Hinduism predates Buddhism.

It could be said that Buddhism branched off from Hinduism, often criticising some of it's beliefs and questioning some of the texts considered authoritative in Hinduism. But this is challenged by some Buddhists who prefer to see their religion as always having been autonomous. But that said, the region they both developed in is the same, and some of the texts they use, or teachings, come from the same sources... and seeing that Hinduism predates Buddhism, it would appear that it is more accurate to say that it grew out of Hinduism.

Similarly, Protestantism grew out of the Catholic Church, although many protestants would dispute this claim as well, stating that it was the Catholic Church that diverged from the path, and they, as Protestants, are merely continuing the SAME religion begun by Jesus and his Apostles. And also similarly, Protestants use many of the same religious texts (most actually... the Catholic Bible includes books that the protestant version does not) and Protestants are famous for, well... PROTESTING, against the perceived errors in Catholicism... nevertheless, they are very related, and rooted in the same origins.

"Hinduism predates Buddhism.

It could be said that Buddhism branched off from Hinduism, often criticising some of it's beliefs and questioning some of the texts considered authoritative in Hinduism. But this is challenged by some Buddhists who prefer to see their religion as always having been autonomous. But that said, the region they both developed in is the same, and some of the texts they use, or teachings, come from the same sources... and seeing that Hinduism predates Buddhism, it would appear that it is more accurate to say that it grew out of Hinduism."

That's like saying that christianity is an offshoot of Mithraism, since there are so many parallels, & Mithraism predates christianity, & they both began in basically the same area.

In fact, in many ways, the followers of Mithra have far more in common with christians than buddhists have with hindus, imo, even though they do not seem to be an Abrahamic faith, on the surface.

Sorry, but I think you're more than a little off on this one.
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"Imagine if children grew up seeing THOSE values being more pervasive in society, than GREED, FAME, WEALTH, BEATING RAPS WITH GOOD LAWYERS, GLAMOUR, etc... being the over-riding values, keeping people "on top"."

You've just described the moslem societies, where religion rules. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Then you go back to that old tired chicken/egg argument - was morality created by religion, or was religion created to cement morality in the masses?

Even wild dogs, wolves, apes & monkeys, lions & tigers & bears (oh my) have morals, rules of behavior to which they adhere. The more developed the beastie, the more rules of behavior they have. The more complex the society, the more strictly they teach & adhere to those rules, & the more rules they have.
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The morality problems we face have much to do with permissiveness, & I'm hoping you can agree to that, at the very least. Here, however, is where you & I part ways on this.

In a capitalist society, the money rules. The more money one has, the more power to determine one's fate in the present state of existence.

It's bound to undermine those religious principles, when ppl see OJ getting off because he could buy his way out with fast-talking opportunistic lawyers. It's bound to undermine religious principles, when children see the results of prostitution, drug & gun running, & robbery as "the other side of capitalism at work." These ppl who do these things are making a profit & living "better" than thier brethren, & no one can see the "spiritual results of thier actions." What they see is someone becoming successful & powerful.

Now, that covers the inner city view of "success," but what of the rich & powerful who have "old money?" What are the role models for those of us who live outside that inner city paradigm?

We all were taught where those other role models got thier riches - from the enslavement & ill use of others, from not "sharing" the fruits of the masses' labor, & from outright illegal actions like undermining Prohibition when it was the law of the land.

The Vanderbilts, the Kennedys, the Rockefellers, etc. all got thier vast inheritances from those ancestors who did wrong to hundreds of thousends, nay, probably millions of ppl. They became our leaders, & thier seed continues to lead us, &, many ppl think, use & abuse us by still not sharing the fruits of our labors.

They became the role models for our society. They were held up as such fine examples of what we all can become in a free capitalist society. "Everyone has equal opportunities," is what we are taught, but do we really ever look at that statement for the underlying meaning that says "if you follow these examples, you, too, will be rich & famous, & your children will prosper more that those of others?"

This is where we get the Madoffs, the Enron bunch, the Cheneys & the Agnews & Blogojaviches who ARE following in the footsteps of those "old money" families.

Ours is a society obsessed with "making it." As long as the almighty dollar rules, you will have the immorality present to achieve that success.

What else could possibly occur, other than a decrease in our overall morality, as we grow up seeing & being taught these things?

The more we learn about "how to make it rich," the more we learn that that path requires a certain ruthlessnes, the lack of caring for others, the need to sidestep the law, that fashion & beauty is more important than substance, that those religious teachings will actually stop us from achieving that money for our creature comforts.

We cry as our capitalism eats us alive, & cry again as we seem to be losing it to "socialistic ideals," when it comes to actually helping our ppl. How silly we are!

Yes, I agree that we are very near the end in this country, Craig, but we differ on the reasons for its fall.

While you would claim that it's due to the lack of religious ideals, I would say it's more due to the very nature of our system. Our history could not have led us anywhere else, considering where our true values lie.

Capitalism has, at its core, corruption, & as long as money rules us, it will continue to erode our values & destroy the framework of our society.

If we are to survive, we must temper our capitalism with more humanistic behaviors. Some of these may come from religion, but the Abrahamic religions, historically, have always seemed to fall to the lure of money over spirituality, & thier influence continually fails to overcome corruption.

There are even hints at communism in the bible, wheh you look at Amos, for example. He was none too pleased with what he saw happening in his time, & called for more equality, sharing the wealth among all.
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I'm not even going to try to "save the world," or even "save this country." I'm not sure that it's possible. I'm not even sure it's worth it, from what I see from ppl.

I would like to see some improvements, though, in my lifetime, & perhaps stave off the inevitable for a while, if I can.

Now, back to my point - if a child is brought up to act like he can exist in a polite society (i.e., rich society), he will have a leg up as he tries to achieve his goals.

The man who doesn't know better than to drink from his fingerbowl (I know a guitarist who did that at a wedding), or uses rude language in front of ppl at a high class gathering, or is too loud, or calls authority figures "dude," or is socially inept in myriad ways - this man is far less likely to "make it," even in our more permissive society.

The job of our school system is to prepare our children, to give them those tools they can use to be somewhat successful in our society. Ignoring these lessons, as we do, today, is hurting our children's chances. This is especially true when this lack is balanced by a system that says to our children "you will always be 'someone,' no matter how ill-mannered or evil or unproductive you may be," like they teach when they concentrate on boosting the self esteem of children.

That offends me to my core, & it tosses out that necessary guilt that would occur when you know you've done something wrong, or didn't do your very best.

"It's okay, I'm still worthwhile. I'm still worthy," is what they are telling our children, "even if I don't fit in or do what's right."

Even wolves know better than that.

Even you recognize that we've lost those polite behaviors, when you say things like, "You cannot compare Roman Times of 200 years ago, to modern history. You have to go back to the swinging 20's in American to find parallel, and even then, the overt behaviors were more confined to clubs and private settings. People respected PUBLIC behavior standards for the most part."

You see that we've lost our manners in public settings, but are against teaching them again? I just think that's so damned odd.

That's like saying that christianity is an offshoot of Mithraism, since there are so many parallels, & Mithraism predates christianity, & they both began in basically the same area.

Not really. Buddhism is almost an ANSWER to what Siddhartha Gautama, saw as errors in Hinduism. The Buddha was a reformer. These two schools of thought existed side by side for THOUSANDS of years. But Hinduism predates Buddhism, where they have similarities, is precisely for that reason... the latter, growing up with the teachings of the former, and then reaching a point of self-discovery, resulting in enlightenment, and ultimately challenging the earlier concepts, reforming them. And in "reforming" something, you are by DEFAULT "building upon" what ALREADY EXISTED. Otherwise it would be something completely new. The Buddha was a REFORMER above all else... he was building upon, improving upon, the religious ways he ALREADY knew.

And he made some important changes... rejecting the caste system for example as a prerequisite to ordination. But He also made grievous errors (imo) such as denying the existence of an ultimate authority (A Creator) while upholding lesser "gods". He removed any validation of FAITH, deciding that only EXPERIENCE matters, only what one can feel and touch and experience matters. Faith is meaningless in Buddhism.

But like Hinduism, it is an ancient religious system, with ancient "problems", much as we see in the differences between the Old Testament of the Bible as contrasted with the New Testament.

"Imagine if children grew up seeing THOSE values being more pervasive in society, than GREED, FAME, WEALTH, BEATING RAPS WITH GOOD LAWYERS, GLAMOUR, etc... being the over-riding values, keeping people "on top"."

You've just described the moslem societies, where religion rules.

Except for the nearly FORCED removal of FREE WILL.

I am not supporting THEOCRACY. I am saying, a FREE SOCIETY, FREELY CHOOSING to live the MAIN VALUES they espouse, those COMMON VALUES which are inherent in most of the world's religions. That if THOSE values were practiced predominantly in society, it would be a motivator for people to keep more in line PERSONALLY with those values. Society tends to raise and lower it's standards, by.... looking around them, and living more in line with how they see their neighbors living, or by the values that are supported by those in positions of prominence or attention, like celebrities, media, politicians, etc...

Even wild dogs, wolves, apes & monkeys, lions & tigers & bears (oh my) have morals, rules of behavior to which they adhere. The more developed the beastie, the more rules of behavior they have. The more complex the society, the more strictly they teach & adhere to those rules, & the more rules they have.

We ourselves are merely animals... "biologically", which is the advantage of the religious belief in SPIRITUALITY. Animals generally have communities, communal behaviors, and they have brains. Without the spark from the Creator, that makes us spiritual beings, we are nothing more than animals with larger brains and more complex social structures.

The morality problems we face have much to do with permissiveness, & I'm hoping you can agree to that, at the very least. Here, however, is where you & I part ways on this.

In a capitalist society, the money rules. The more money one has, the more power to determine one's fate in the present state of existence.

It's bound to undermine those religious principles

Yes and no.

Gaining and maintaining wealth generally requires a degree of discipline. People who are disciplined can use their discipline for religious pursuits and adherence just as easily as they can their financial pursuits. Some billionaires are very principled spiritually, despite their wealth. Others reject their former religious beliefs or at least adherence to them. It really depends more upon the person.

But money, success, fame, like any other temptation, can lead to a fall, can lead to excess, just as pursuing sex or any other carnal pursuit can.

The Vanderbilts, the Kennedys, the Rockefellers, etc. all got thier vast inheritances from those ancestors who did wrong to hundreds of thousends, nay, probably millions of ppl.

John D. Rockefeller was self made. He was incredibly disciplined and good at business. Whether his rigorous determination in business was a fault or a virtue is debated, still today, by historians. He has been blamed for driving some of his competitors to ruin, but the fact remains that he made other competitors very wealthy. He offered fair terms to all his competitors, offering money, stocks in Standard Oil (Rockefeller's Company) or BOTH. And they were always fair appraisals at current values. Those who took shares, in effect partnering with Rockefeller, became much more wealthy, than when they were running their own smaller companies. The ones who fought it, got left behind. Not unlike a local mom and pop sore, competing with a WalMart, rather than ADAPTING to the larger competitor, and altering their business, to maintain a need for their own products or services.

Rockefeller is one of the greatest (maybe the greatest) philanthropists of all time. His wealth, while vast, has achieved more good, possibly than any other billionaire in recent memory.

He was very principled in his personal and religious values, and wealth did not change that in him. He maintained it to the day he died.

Yes, I agree that we are very near the end in this country, Craig, but we differ on the reasons for its fall.

While you would claim that it's due to the lack of religious ideals, I would say it's more due to the very nature of our system. Our history could not have led us anywhere else, considering where our true values lie.

I think that's a good argument for the Roman Civilization, but not ours. Ours is a country FIRMLY grounded in BOTH, capitalism -AND- the values of Christianity. Many of those principled spiritual values STILL GUIDE us today, but it is being pushed out, more and more, and as popular opinion continues toward a DETEST of ALL RELIGIONS, and particularly, Christianity, we will see the consequences of it on society as a whole. We already are in fact.

Capitalism has, at its core, corruption

That's ridiculous. And it is that attitude, and it's attendant laziness and jealousy, that will turn us into a Socialist or Communist country one day.

In it's most basic sense, Capitalism is nothing more than a system that upholds private ownership of goods and the means of production, and open markets where the products can be sold and profits (after taxes) retained by the owners of the goods.

It's like saying that MONEY ITSELF is evil, when it can be used for either good or ill purposes.

Money is not "evil", it is a material object, a tool.

It is PEOPLE who have motives for what they use TOOLS for.

as long as money rules us, it will continue to erode our values & destroy the framework of our society.

Money is an inanimate object, like drugs, like food. It doesn't rule ANYTHING. It sits there.

PEOPLE control their own hearts.

There are even hints at communism in the bible, wheh you look at Amos, for example.

Amos?

Just look at the early community of Christians. They sold what they had to distribute among the poor, and held ALL THINGS in common. They practiced COMMUNAL living... "COMMUNE" the root word of COMMUNISM. But the political and social philosophy of Communism has little in common with the FREELY CHOSEN communal lifestyles of early Christians, other than dividing resources among the community.

You see that we've lost our manners in public settings, but are against teaching them again? I just think that's so damned odd.

It's good to learn ANYTHING that improves one's social skills or improves ones knowledge for that matter. But it may be like learning the Navajo language... if no one is speaking it, what practical use is it? I mean sure, you may one day come across a Navajo and be able to converse with him, but to take up school resources on something that can be learned elsewhere, without taking up school resources, is ridiculous. Schools even now, require a laundry list of things that PARENTS have to buy for their children to bring to school, including tissue paper, hand sanitizer, scissors, markers, paper towels... there may be 30 or more items that PARENTS are now required to buy, and be brought to school. When I was growing up, you needed pencils and paper and a notebook. That was about it. You didn't have to supply your own tissue paper, hand sanitizer, etc...

School's are dpending on PARENTS now, for resources. I don't want the funds they DO HAVE reallocated to lessons in things NON-ACADEMIC!

Plus, again... you seem to think that children will magically PRACTICE proper etiquette, because they have it incorporated in their curriculum. How much HISTORY do you think most kids remember? Do you realize that schools today have a list of rules of behavior for their schools? These are usually given to parents as well, so they will know what is expected of their children. Do you actually believe that KNOWING the rules, makes children PRACTICE the rules? Guidance offices are full of kids who "KNOW" what they are supposed to do, but don't do them anyway. Did your own son obey the rules you gave him always?

I mean, you think "I" am odd?

I find the utopian dreamworld your head lives in, and which you seem to think is... REALITY, odd!

I have utopian ideals too, but I have to deal with REALITY to help foster a plan to get to the IDEAL.

Do we pay these guys by the post?

Is the childish whim of a confused little girl really worth this much effort?