General Music Chat

Much can be accomplished by way of Bullwhip

Phil bro, we will never agree on this. Kids throw chairs at teachers today, they punch them, and they bring knives and guns to school and KILL them.

Etiquette classes, in school, are not going to help... IN THE LEAST!

Kids don't do most of what they are asked or required to do NOW! Why would they obey rules of etiquette? They can't obey "sit down in your chair".

Parents are letting VIDEO GAMES and CABLE raise their kids... that is WHEN they know where there kids are, and teachers are having sex with their students.

Our society has a MORAL problem Phil... a MORAL PROBLEM!

Not an "etiquette" problem.

This is why SCIENCE is only "one" method of solving society's ills, and not sufficient alone in doing so. God, and CHURCH have never been needed more, than TODAY!

Science can answer "HOW" life came to be, but only religion answers "WHY" ... what the PURPOSE of life is. Without that grounding in faith, which is based on prophets LISTENING TO GOD, then PURPOSE becomes meaningless, and society will follow the paths that some here, already have... LIFE IS ALL ABOUT SELFISHNESS. I AM THE MOST IMPORTANT THING, AND ONLY MY DESIRES MATTER.

Western Civilization in particular is suffering a MORAL CRISIS, and this is almost in direct proportion to the decline of belief in GOD.

The glass of the world's MORAL COMPASS is clouding, and it will become FAR WORSE before it gets better.

We don't live in an Objectivist society, I don't think "Life is all about me" is really something that most people live by. I think it's funny that you think the times have gotten worse, because they haven't. Physical violence, sexual violence, emotional abuse, etc. all existed and were just as prevalent in society as they are today. The difference now is we have more people paying attention to it because we have access to it all the time. Do you think wars were nice and peaceful up until we saw footage of the horrors of Vietnam? Hell no, the only reason it caused such a fuss is because we actually got to see it, and I guarantee people would have had the same reaction about every other war that came before had there been Television and photography.

TL;DR Society isn't more violent or depraved, it's just more out in the open. Stop being so fanatical, Craig.

TL;DR Society isn't more violent or depraved, it's just more out in the open. Stop being so fanatical, Craig.

History is cyclical.

It is not that things are worse than EVER in history, but getting worse in many respects, than in RECENT history. We can go back to Roman Times and find far more "depravity" than we see now.

But, regarding recent history...

Teachers having sex with their students "IS" worse now. Violence in schools "IS" worse now. The brutality of violence "IS" worse. Many things are worse, and they are going to get worse still.

Statistics from previous decades, can be swewed, because crimes against women were often not reported, and racially motivated crimes were often not counted in official statistics. So don't assume I am someone who sees the 1950's, for example, as a rosy perfect time in our history. But there is NO DOUBT that certain kinds of violence are WORSE. Many kids are growing up today desensitized to violence, and this has been having a chilling effect, for example... kids bombing schools, shooting teachers... kids brutally beating other kids, merely to be filmed and put on YouTube. Trying to "out-do" other kids in how violent they can get. With a decline in traditional morals and values... violence as entertainment... sex in public as entertainment, and on and on... a sense of "shame" is being lost. It's hard to image what can make kids feel "shame" these days.

As these kids become adults, and their new and improved "values" begin to dominate society.... you will see the effects of all this.

We have been seeing the effects of it already.

There is nothing "fanatical" about this view.

TL;DR Society isn't more violent or depraved, it's just more out in the open. Stop being so fanatical, Craig.

History is cyclical.

It is not that things are worse than EVER in history, but getting worse in many respects, than in RECENT history. We can go back to Roman Times and find far more "depravity" than we see now.

But, regarding recent history...

Teachers having sex with their students "IS" worse now. Violence in schools "IS" worse now. The brutality of violence "IS" worse. Many things are worse, and they are going to get worse still.

Statistics from previous decades, can be swewed, because crimes against women were often not reported, and racially motivated crimes were often not counted in official statistics. So don't assume I am someone who sees the 1950's, for example, as a rosy perfect time in our history. But there is NO DOUBT that certain kinds of violence are WORSE. Many kids are growing up today desensitized to violence, and this has been having a chilling effect, for example... kids bombing schools, shooting teachers... kids brutally beating other kids, merely to be filmed and put on YouTube. Trying to "out-do" other kids in how violent they can get. With a decline in traditional morals and values... violence as entertainment... sex in public as entertainment, and on and on... a sense of "shame" is being lost. It's hard to image what can make kids feel "shame" these days.

As these kids become adults, and their new and improved "values" begin to dominate society.... you will see the effects of all this.

We have been seeing the effects of it already.

There is nothing "fanatical" about this view.

Sex and Violence have always been entertainment. Have you forgotten about Gladiatorial fights and prostitution? Like I said, it's not "worse" it's just more out in the open. Humans have always been violent, and nothing is going to change that. As for your spiel about filming violence and putting it on youtube, we've been putting violence on TV for years! Budd Dwyer, Kennedy, Vietnam! It's all the same and it only shocks you because it's younger kids, whom we view as being innocent. Hell! I'm sure if there was television in the Bible Days, Jesus' crucifixion would be televised! The real problem with this is not violence, or sexuality. It's idiocy, and poor parenting. I was raised on Punk, Metal, Tattoos, Beavis and Butthead, Mortal Kombat, etc. My father was letting my watch violent films at the age of 9, and I thought of them as entertainment and nothing more. I did not, and still do not have any desire to murder other human beings because it does not benefit me. I was a smart kid that could make the distinction between fantasy and reality, and it sort of surprised me to figure out that not everyone thought that way. Now, I've realized that it's just a matter of bad parenting. You do more to hurt kids by shielding them from violence and sex than you do exposing them to it. And, if you do choose to expose them to it, it is up to you as a parent to properly explain it to your kids (and to determine what the appropriate age for explaining these things to your kid is.) so that they understand that it's okay to relieve frustration by blowing up people in their video game, but not in real life.

I think you should look into Marilyn Manson's Holy Wood album, Craig. It covers a lot of what you mentioned, with America's relationship with violence, media, children, etc. While you're at it, I recommend reading http://www.nachtkabarett.com/CelebritarianCorporation so you have a better understanding of the album as a whole. There are lots of references to alchemy, Kabbalah, and Psalm 23. I think it may hold your interest.

You're right, Craig. We can't agree, cuz we approach things from such widely different viewpoints that we will never understand each other.

You're right, Craig. We can't agree, cuz we approach things from such widely different viewpoints that we will never understand each other.

Your statement seems to infer that my being a supporter of religion, or maybe my belief and faith in God Himself, is where our divide is, but I don't think that explains this disagreement.

For me, I am approaching this from a more PRACTICAL standpoint than it appears to me that you are. Violence is so prominent in schools today, and even common against TEACHERS, who are the authority figures. And some of those authority figures are having sex with their students, as never before, and it dominates headlines when this occurs. So there is not only a lack of respect from students toward teachers, but a lack of respect FROM teachers toward students.

Schools are like ZOOS today Phil.

This CANNOT be solved in schools.

It can ONLY be solved AT HOME and starting from the EARLIEST ages. And even then, it is salmon swimming upstream, cause kids that ARE being raised to respect athority, are fighting an up-hill battle against the many students who are not being raised well, and the prevailing attitudes that exist. Hollwood is no help either, with their predominance of movies and tv shows, that portray kids as in control of their own lives, and having kids be the intelligent ones, while their parents are lame and clueless. And then you have the added bolstering of kids access to the internet, often unmonitored, and older generations just now catching up to how to utilize and understand these technologies, whereas kids learn them much more quickly, and are growing up with these technologies from the earliest ages. There is SO MUCH against kids being well-behaved, having discipline, respecting authority, etc...

It takes a really devoted effort on the parts of parents, to go against the grain, and spend the time necessary to instill good values in their children.

As mentioned before, we are BOTH in favor of the goal, of kids learning good behaviors and proper etiquette, but it won't happen in public schools. They are out of control. A class in etiquette CANNOT fix that problem. It is too deeply entrenched, and there are too many factors at play here, including societal culture at large, as mentioned above.

We are sending our children to a BATTLE ZONE in today's world, not to a grooming school. Things have changed since you were in school Phil, and since I was in school. You have NO IDEA what is going on there.

Sex and Violence have always been entertainment. Have you forgotten about Gladiatorial fights and prostitution?

You overlooked my clarification, that I am speaking of RECENT HISTORY. History that is still with the public consciousness, like going back a half century or several centuries even.

You cannot compare Roman Times of 200 years ago, to modern history. You have to go back to the swinging 20's in American to find parallel, and even then, the overt behaviors were more confined to clubs and private settings. People respected PUBLIC behavior standards for the most part.

And it was often limited to certain groups, and places... more liberal cities for example. Today, it is far more common, to find people literally having sex in public places, for the entertainment of ANYONE who may come across it. I don't care what people do in their homes, but in public, you are exposing these things to any age group, any cultural group. It's like a barrage, well.... it's like a zoo.

And when parents do, discuss things well with their kids, studies show that enumerated graphic portrayals of violence affect children in an adverse way. And now, the violence is not mere portrayals, but REAL. I am old enough to remember, the first time news programs began showing dead people, without blurring the images. It was shocking at the time for most. Now, there is almost no limit to what can be attained through the Internet. American soldiers being beheaded, or domestically, people who have been run over by trains, or something else, and have been cut in half, and are dying, and people will stand there now, and film it with their cell phone cameras, and later place them on the Internet, proud of themselves for capturing the images, and being the one who got all the hits and comments.... attention.

Even the comment you made... "I wouldn't murder someone because it doesn't BENEFIT me." reveals the attitude I am speaking of, and how common place it is becoming. This is not meant as an insult, just a comment of reality.

You are right that certain things have always existed to varying degrees, but you are wrong about ENTRENCHED it is becoming now, and how ACCEPTED the public displays of it are. And it is this PUBLIC ACCEPTANCE that is of most concern. People are guided MOST by public opinion, whether they admit it or not.

The Milgram Experiment was the groundbreaking study of how far people can go, in inflicting pain, even potentially deadly force, to others, when prodded by authority figures or even public acceptance. It was found that more than 60% of the test group, was willing to inflict deadly shocks to other human beings, despite their personal opposition to doing so. Few people stood on principle, and walked out of the study, REFUSING to administer the electric shocks.

I just read yesterday, about a French Television Show that recently aired, which is really, a modern updating of this experiment. Producers found people, who were willing to participate on a reality show, and rather than the doctor being in charge of an experiment, and being the authority figure... in this case, the show's host acts as the authority figure, along with an audience, who shouts out "ELECTROCUTE THEM!!!" (or something similar) in order to prod the show's subjects, into electrocuting other people. As with the Milgram Experiment, the shocks are NOT real, but the participants think they are. Actors portray being under intense pain, even murderous pain, when the shocks are raised. And these people, under prodding and peer pressure, are willing to dole them out. Many express misgivings and say they do not want to hurt these people with the stronger and more intense shocks, but they can almost always be prodded into doing so anyway.

The Milgram Experiment, showed that 60% (maybe 65%?) of respondents, were willing to betray their own personal dispositions and continue to the experiment conclusion (the highest grade of shock, that can potentially result in death).

The TV Show?

Apparently today, more than 80% of participants, are willing to administer the highest, life threatening shocks.

You suggest it is not "worse" just "out in the open"... but what I am saying is that being "out in the open"... IS... what makes it worse, and what will perpetuate it to more intense levels. Once the public believes something is culturally accepted, many will lower their own personal beliefs, to match society's, even when those standards become lower.

I think we are only at the beginning of what is possible, and what will result. Typically, things reach a very low bottom, and society suffers a great deal of chaos and depravity, before some moral force, is able to be heard more forcefully, and public opinion turns the pendulum back again.

That generally ushers in a cycle of modesty, that also ends up going to far.

Humans are notorious at reaching an extreme, only to revert back to the other extreme. It is exceedingly difficult to convince the public to remain in a BALANCE, and avoid EITHER of these extremes, until it is too late.

I preach balance in life.

But the public are like sheep, or lillypads carried on streams. They will be carried which ever way the current is flowing that particular day (era).

Much can be accomplished by way of Bullwhip

LOL

True, but you go to jail these days, even for smacking a kid on the bottom in a WalMart.

"Your statement seems to infer that my being a supporter of religion, or maybe my belief and faith in God Himself, is where our divide is, but I don't think that explains this disagreement"

Well, when you respond with statements like this one:

"Our society has a MORAL problem Phil... a MORAL PROBLEM!

Not an "etiquette" problem.

This is why SCIENCE is only "one" method of solving society's ills, and not sufficient alone in doing so. God, and CHURCH have never been needed more, than TODAY"

what else am I supposed to think? (Perhaps I'm supposed to think that you are again doubting my own beliefs & faith, or saying that they mean nothing in the face of your own, since there is a "divide" between us, hmm?)

Frankly, I doubt that this rampant violence you refer to is as prevalent in the nation's schools as you would have me believe. It certainly is NOT the case where I live, to such a large extent.

As you so often do, you are blowing everything way too far out of proportion, & making extreme blanketing statements that would support your continuing ranting position that there is an immediate need for a "return to (your) god".

On the one hand, you admit that these are lessons that need to be taught, yet you seem to be at sea as to where the students can learn them. You must see that there has been a huge definciency in these lessons over the last 50-60 years. Surely, you know that they were taught - IN SCHOOL - since public schooling began in this country. Do you actually SEE parents teaching mannerly behavior? Do you even think they HAD those lessons, themselves, if they graduated any time after, say, 1960?

The farther we get from those generations who had taken the scholastic lessons in mannerly behavior, the farther we get from mannerly behavior. Yes, there are other factors involved - both parents working, peer pressure, the media, yadda yadda yadda. You can give me all the excuses you want to.

You seem to like to view all of this as extremes.

My son graduated in '83, & I have friends whose kids are in school right now. I'm not gonna accept your assumption that the schools are zoos just because you say that they are, especially when the facts, as I see them, would prove otherwise.

Yeah, inner city schools have more problems than the ones in my area. So frikken what? That changes nothing, Craig.

Ettiquette needs to be taught. "Self-esteem" does not. Replace Guidance Class with lessons that the children can USE throughout thier lives - lessons in proper behavior & respect, through the use of ettiquette. Grade them on thier progress, & they will learn & apply the lessons.

It's a good plan to help teachers AND students, & if you can't see that, there just ain't no talking to you about it. I don't get what bugs you so badly about it, but wtf...

HIP-HIP HOORAY SANS There are proper functions for every body part, there are entrances and exits, God designed us so just follow the simple design rules. History proves what happens when you make your own rules. Case in point. Also the Sodomites.

HIP-HIP HOORAY SANS There are proper functions for every body part, there are entrances and exits, God designed us so just follow the simple design rules. History proves what happens when you make your own rules. Case in point. Also the Sodomites.

Some people are born with both male AND female sexual organs.

Did God design that?

(Perhaps I'm supposed to think that you are again doubting my own beliefs & faith, or saying that they mean nothing in the face of your own, since there is a "divide" between us, hmm?)

We're divided on the "ISSUE" Phil.

Your asumming too much.

Frankly, I doubt that this rampant violence you refer to is as prevalent in the nation's schools as you would have me believe. It certainly is NOT the case where I live, to such a large extent.

It's unlikely you would know, if it was. People have to die or be found with a gun in school to make the news anymore. Parents aren't notified when police have been called to a school, when a student has been found with a knife... a teacher being assulted even, is unlikely to make it home, unless your kids told you about it.

As you so often do, you are blowing everything way too far out of proportion, & making extreme blanketing statements that would support your continuing ranting position that there is an immediate need for a "return to (your) god".

My God?

My God is the God that created the Cosmos.

Which God do you have?

Unless you are Hindu, or something similar, SHAME ON YOU! You are just as bad as RELIGIONISTS, who think they worship a different God, because they disagree theologically with someone else.

You must see that there has been a huge definciency in these lessons over the last 50-60 years. Surely, you know that they were taught - IN SCHOOL - since public schooling began in this country.

Not in my public school they weren't.

I learned manners and etiquette from parents, aunts and uncles.

Do you actually SEE parents teaching mannerly behavior?

Of course. What kind of question is that? I do this, and my wife does, and everyone that I know of my uncles, aunts, cousins, etc... teach their children manners -AND- etiquette. My kids are constantly praised for being polite, and respectful, by adults they come into contact with. But I also teach them proper table etiquette for public dining... how to hold their silverware, where to place it when they are done eating, which utensils to use for which courses, how to eat their soup properly, butter their bread, EVERYTHING! At home, I don't care how they eat their soup, or if they butter the entire piece of bread at once, but they have to know what is expected of them, at a 5 Star Restaurant, or when they are a guest at a formal dinner.

The farther we get from those generations who had taken the scholastic lessons in mannerly behavior, the farther we get from mannerly behavior. Yes, there are other factors involved - both parents working, peer pressure, the media, yadda yadda yadda. You can give me all the excuses you want to.

Excuses?

You don't live in reality.

Facts are not going to get through.


You are complaining to someone for violating the noise ordinance by screaming, when they are bleeding to death on your front porch.

There is a more immediate and life threatening issue going on, and you can't see it, for focusing on the smaller point.

There is an entire CULTURE at work here.

How successful was the "Say no to drugs" campaign. Would you defend that? Or might you say... "You think people are going to stop using drugs just because you "tell" them to?

Because what you suggest as a solution to an EPIC problem, is not much different. You assume that educating CHILDREN on proper etiquette, means they will actually PRACTICE it.

Do you also believe we can end teen pregnancy by "telling" kids NOT to have sex?

If you don't, then you are inconsistent, and.... WRONG!

There have been rocks and trash thrown in Gods original gene pool and that has muddied the water. Not his doing. He supplied us with all we needed. Like our environment as a whole we have done poorly with it. We have polluted air , water, earth and even space. Do you think the gene pool is untouched? We are a very stupid and dirty and selfish species of life yet we also have the ability to save ourselves and clean all that is wrong. The Devil may win a lot of battles along the road but I believe self preservation at some point will rise up and save us ---- or not.

There have been rocks and trash thrown in Gods original gene pool and that has muddied the water. Not his doing.

So, you should be able to admit that people can be born homosexual too, but just that, it is not God's doing, correct?

I believe people can be born many things. We are born also with the ability and potential to solve problems. Many problems have been solved and many have not. AIDS used to be a death sentance, today it is not. When JFK said man will walk on the moon in 10 years many thought him a lunatic. It only takes one man to believe and see how to solve a problem. The energy problems of this world are already solved but corporate America and others haven't laid infastructure to control and maximize the profits . (Nuclear, Hydrogen)So it isn't available as it should be. A Shangrila world society is the only goal for mankind that makes ultimate sence for survival. The phrase "for the good of mankind" doesn't exist in this corporate controled world we live in. Until it does we are heading in the wrong direction.