General Music Chat

the lord also said that the bible is an interpretation by man and that all mans interpretations are flawed and that "when in doubt" the words of the profit are written on the hearts of men... does your heart tell you killing is right in this case? not pointing the finger here... just asking you to ask yourself.

Please provide the verse that says that.

Precisely the verse where the lord says the bible is an interpretation.

I'll have to break out my bible when I get home... er perhaps some inet research when I have a min... be glad to point that out for ya.

for now, suffice to say the bible is full of paradox, for instance:

"it has flaws which appear with time. If "sin" is wrong, incorrect, or an imperfect act, then God did not create man perfect in ..."

I don't think this makes the message it delivers any less important or meaningfull...

I'm not alone in my interpretation either...
"The man that will diligently study the Torah, the Gospel, and the Koran is best positioned to understand the words of God. A man cannot fully understand a confirming word if he has no knowledge of the thing that word confirms. Without knowledge of the Torah and the Gospel, we cannot reap the full benefit of the Koran. Likewise, without knowledge of the Koran, Christians and Jews do not receive the full benefit of the Torah and the Gospel. Since God cannot lie, let us study His words; all of them."

http://www.mcleanministries.com/Scriptu ... tation.htm

"If we rely on men to tell us what a scripture means without searching for the truth ourselves, we become blind followers. "

"Remember, our leaders are human. They are capable of making mistakes. They also received training from other men who are capable of making mistakes. Through the years and centuries, small misinterpretations can develop into serious doctrinal errors."

certainly you are familiar with scripture that says that no man walked the earth without sin but jesus... if that is true... then it is at least possible that one mans interpretation is flawed by his sins.
at the very least we know that man can misinterpret the bible... even a preacher.

thank you for inspiring me to research this item and in the process enrich myself.

ps weg, perhaps I can cut this diversion short by saying I meant that the bible we have on earth... not the word of god

it is an interpretation because men are not god... and therefore they cannot directly write the word of god, and since men have sin they potentially misuse/misinterpret the word.

this is a fairly well known concept in the bible... remember that whole thing about "each man should read the bible himself and not simply accept the words of his/her preacher"?

I claim to be no expert... I have only read this and that... and I'm afraid I am a very poor example of a christian... but I try...
sometimes.

1 John 4:1 Dear friends, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, because many false prophets have gone out into the world.

1 Thessalonians 2:13 And we also thank God continually because, when you received the word of God, which you heard from us, you accepted it not as the word of men, but as it actually is, the word of God, which is at work in you who believe.

-on the one hand this proves your point... on the other hand it points out that the real word of god only exists INSIDE one who believes. When you read/hear the word it is transformed... er at least that is my interpretation.

It also says not to quivel over the words... and I am at least guilty of that... but I like to think I'm not doing it JUST to prove you wrong.

However indirectly our conversation has been a vehicle for a positive influence... thanks for that.

I love this silly Bible-worship stuff! In 1907 they found some mounds in Egypt and in there discovered something called "The sayings of Jesus". Widely believed by archaeologists to be the most direct, accurate account of what Jesus actually preached ever found. Not some PR spin by Greeks, Romans and all sorts of self-promoting gents as you find in the "Bible". So what does Jesus actually say?

DIY. You don't need priests, Bibles or organizations. They are all Evil. Heaven is right here. Enjoy. You are good. Salvation is personal. It's all in you. Don't follow leaders. Peace is king. Kindness rules. All violence is bad. Help the poor, heal the sick, despise the rich who won't share.

In other words, George Bush is the Anti-Christ.

ok not sure if I agree with the conclusion you draw from it but, seems pretty close to the words written down on my heart... thanks for that!

The few, the proud, and why the world hates us. And why Al Qaeda recruitments are up 1000%.

CAMP PENDLETON, Calif. (AP) — A Marine corporal testifying in a court-martial said Marines in his unit began routinely beating Iraqis after officers ordered them to "crank up the violence level."

Cpl. Saul H. Lopezromo testified Saturday at the murder trial of Cpl. Trent D. Thomas.

"We were told to crank up the violence level," said Lopezromo, testifying for the defense.

When a juror asked for further explanation, Lopezromo said: "We beat people, sir."

Within weeks of allegedly being scolded, seven Marines and a Navy corpsman went out late one night to find and kill a suspected insurgent in the village of Hamandiya near the Abu Ghraib prison. The Marines and corpsman were from 2nd Platoon, Kilo Company, 3rd Battalion, 5th Regiment.

Unable to find him, the Marines and corpsman dragged another man from his house, fatally shot him, and then planted an AK-47 assault rifle near the body to make it appear he had been killed in a shootout, according to court testimony.

Lopezromo, who was not part of the squad on its late-night mission, said he saw nothing wrong with what Thomas did.

"I don't see it as an execution, sir," he told the judge. "I see it as killing the enemy."

He said Marines consider all Iraqi men part of the insurgency.

Prosecution witnesses testified that Thomas shot the 52-year-old man at point-blank range after he had already been shot by other Marines and was lying on the ground.

Lopezromo said a procedure called "dead-checking" was routine. If Marines entered a house where a man was wounded, instead of checking to see whether he needed medical aid, they shot him to make sure he was dead, he testified.

"If somebody is worth shooting once, they're worth shooting twice," he said.

Irminsul,

I disgree with every point you have made and consider them conjecture and personal opinion.

The only one I will even debate with you further is this comment:

As far as Christianity and war....you are purposely miscontruing that passage from Matthew as an excuse or approval of war. It is in fact saying that war is an unfortunate human priclivity...but then again so is "sin" if one is a Christian. And they don't usually try to excuse the continued perpetuation of that act, do they?

How dare you say that? The passage says what it says, not your interpretation of what it says. I don't want war. I want peace. I don't use that passage to justify anything. But the Lord said there will be wars and the rumors of wars. So IF you believe in HIS word War is inevitable whether you want it or not and there is nothing you or anyone can say or do to prevent it.

Clarification - I am not Christian. But having studied various Christian texts, in context with the real history surrounding them, I can tell you that if you rely on the KJV (King James Version) of the Bible as the "word of the Lord" I believe you to be sadly mistaken. The KJV is a 15th century RE-interpretation of the already interpreted-to-death Pentateuch of the Old Testament and some highly dubious translations of the New Testament. So, don't wrangle with me on that note. You'll lose.

American Christianity tends to use the KJV to spin current political beliefs largely centered on conservative to very rightwing American politics. This is an abhorrent thing to do to the text of honest, good hearted Christians and an intellectually dishonest trick of the rightwing fundamentalists in this nation.

Know what the difference is, at heart, between AlQaeda and Army of God?

Not a blessed thing.

Yeah, With Davis "THE FOUR BROTHERS" I heard MISS IRMINSUL & CHICKEN HAWK are after us! So, Watch your back. Maybe we should get out of town & lay low. There KILLERS!

Somebody missed their thorazine pudding today.

Oh, and it's "They're". Not "there".

We need to get back to musical issues. I don't think anybody can win any debate on this issue, it's entirely too complicated. Everyone's made some very valid arguments both pro and against the war. We can only hope that someday everyone gets tired of killing each other and decides to get to the negotiating table and end this madness. It took decades for Northern Ireland to have a cease fire, and now they are enjoying a booming economy. Could you imagine how much money the Arabs and Israelis could make if they had peace and a booming tourist trade? Throughout history religious wars have always run their course, I hope this one ends real soon. I may disagree with some of Irminsul's views, but he's always eloquent, and certainly I respect his viewpoints. One thing for sure I hope everyone agrees on is while our young men and women are in harm's way we have to give them our utmost support. They may be called home sooner or later, but until then let's at least give them all they need to do their jobs the best and safest they can. AND LET"S GET BACK TO MUSIC PLEASE, THIS IS A MUSIC WEBSITE, ISN'T IT? Later...your friendly neighborhood bluesman fisherman bob.

Irminsul,

I disgree with every point you have made and consider them conjecture and personal opinion.

The only one I will even debate with you further is this comment:

As far as Christianity and war....you are purposely miscontruing that passage from Matthew as an excuse or approval of war. It is in fact saying that war is an unfortunate human priclivity...but then again so is "sin" if one is a Christian. And they don't usually try to excuse the continued perpetuation of that act, do they?

How dare you say that? The passage says what it says, not your interpretation of what it says. I don't want war. I want peace. I don't use that passage to justify anything. But the Lord said there will be wars and the rumors of wars. So IF you believe in HIS word War is inevitable whether you want it or not and there is nothing you or anyone can say or do to prevent it.

Clarification - I am not Christian. But having studied various Christian texts, in context with the real history surrounding them, I can tell you that if you rely on the KJV (King James Version) of the Bible as the "word of the Lord" I believe you to be sadly mistaken. The KJV is a 15th century RE-interpretation of the already interpreted-to-death Pentateuch of the Old Testament and some highly dubious translations of the New Testament. So, don't wrangle with me on that note. You'll lose.

American Christianity tends to use the KJV to spin current political beliefs largely centered on conservative to very rightwing American politics. This is an abhorrent thing to do to the text of honest, good hearted Christians and an intellectually dishonest trick of the rightwing fundamentalists in this nation.

Know what the difference is, at heart, between AlQaeda and Army of God?

Not a blessed thing.

Your not a Christian? What was my first clue.

Don't wrangle with me, you'll lose? That is a rather arrogant statement to make.

So you have studied Christian texts huh? Which ones? There is only one, the bible. Which you don't mention studying. Try it. You may be "enlightend".

I would also like to know "the real" history you speak of or do you mean "your history" so it fits "your agenda" kinda like KJV has been twisted to serve "a right wing agenda".

Please stop, you are as transparent as glass. Which was my MO all along. Thanks for walking into it.

Lastly, it is customary to say thank you when some one pays you a compliment, like when I said your music is really good. I wasn't expecting it for the aforementioned reasons.

You may respond however you like. I give you the last word. This will be the last time I address you.

Irminsul,

I disgree with every point you have made and consider them conjecture and personal opinion.

The only one I will even debate with you further is this comment:

As far as Christianity and war....you are purposely miscontruing that passage from Matthew as an excuse or approval of war. It is in fact saying that war is an unfortunate human priclivity...but then again so is "sin" if one is a Christian. And they don't usually try to excuse the continued perpetuation of that act, do they?

How dare you say that? The passage says what it says, not your interpretation of what it says. I don't want war. I want peace. I don't use that passage to justify anything. But the Lord said there will be wars and the rumors of wars. So IF you believe in HIS word War is inevitable whether you want it or not and there is nothing you or anyone can say or do to prevent it.

Clarification - I am not Christian. But having studied various Christian texts, in context with the real history surrounding them, I can tell you that if you rely on the KJV (King James Version) of the Bible as the "word of the Lord" I believe you to be sadly mistaken. The KJV is a 15th century RE-interpretation of the already interpreted-to-death Pentateuch of the Old Testament and some highly dubious translations of the New Testament. So, don't wrangle with me on that note. You'll lose.

American Christianity tends to use the KJV to spin current political beliefs largely centered on conservative to very rightwing American politics. This is an abhorrent thing to do to the text of honest, good hearted Christians and an intellectually dishonest trick of the rightwing fundamentalists in this nation.

Know what the difference is, at heart, between AlQaeda and Army of God?

Not a blessed thing.

Your not a Christian? What was my first clue.

Don't wrangle with me, you'll lose? That is a rather arrogant statement to make.

So you have studied Christian texts huh? Which ones? There is only one, the bible. Which you don't mention studying. Try it. You may be "enlightend".

I would also like to know "the real" history you speak of or do you mean "your history" so it fits "your agenda" kinda like KJV has been twisted to serve "a right wing agenda".

Please stop, you are as transparent as glass. Which was my MO all along. Thanks for walking into it.

Lastly, it is customary to say thank you when some one pays you a compliment, like when I said your music is really good. I wasn't expecting it for the aforementioned reasons.

You may respond however you like. I give you the last word. This will be the last time I address you.

If you seriously believe that the KJV Bible is the first last and only text of religious importance to Christians....disregarding the Gospels of Thomas, Judas, Mary, the Nag Hammadi writings, the original early Greek texts from which the original New Testament is pulled, the Dead Sea Scrolls, the several letters of Paul etc etc etc....then you are truly more ignorant of your own faith than I had previously thought.

So who actually walked into the glass? How are them shards tasting?

Isn't it just wrong that I....a non Christian.....would know this stuff that you SHOULD?

One thing for sure I hope everyone agrees on is while our young men and women are in harm's way we have to give them our utmost support. They may be called home sooner or later, but until then let's at least give them all they need to do their jobs the best and safest they can. AND LET"S GET BACK TO MUSIC PLEASE, THIS IS A MUSIC WEBSITE, ISN'T IT? Later...your friendly neighborhood bluesman fisherman bob.

Better yet....lets bring them HOME.

NOW.

OK, back to music, as you say.

The Holy Roman Catholic Church just took 660 million bucks and used it to pay off the victims of their ritual, ingrained, institutionalized child molestation racket.

It's shocking on one level that they used it to buy off their target victims--money that could have gone to feed the hungry and cure illnesses.

But even more shocking is they had those incredible sums of money, and never had any intention of using it for the above.

What would Jesus do? Tear down the Vatican.