General Music Chat

Delusions, everywhere.

Says Cretindilettante.

Who better to say it BUT me?

That is true...Who would know delusion better than the most delusional person in the world?

Delusions, everywhere.

Says Cretindilettante.

Who better to say it BUT me?

That is true...Who would know delusion better than the most delusional person in the world?

I don't think anyone in this thread has the place to tell me I'm delusional, when all of their arguments are either half assed misinterpretations of my own arguments, based on a story book, arguments from emotion, and ad hominem attacks. If all of you are this delusional and rabid about your beliefs, it's going to be extremely easy to get noticed here in Texas.

I don't think anyone in this thread has the place to tell me I'm delusional.

Jimmy claims that "I" am delusional.

And he actually respects me for the most part I think.

I think you're forgetting the fact that I'm a human being, and human beings are pre programmed to value things that are meaningless.

More contradictions?

You are PRE-PROGRAMMED, yet you have insight into the TRUTH, yet you "CHOOSE" NOT to follow the truth. How can you "CHOOSE" not to follow the truth if you are pre-programmed? If you are pre-programmed to NOT follow the truth, as you suggest, then what kind of F*CKED UP PROGRAMMER, programs things to NOT follow the truth? You say life is meaningless, yet some really sociopathic programmer, screwing with everything he creates, seems to have alot of PERSONAL MEANING, in what he is doing....

"I'm going to create a set of truths, but then PRE-PROGRAM everyone to NOT follow the truth, and yet, ALLOW the blessed few I CHOOSE, to UNDERSTAND that they are NOT following the truth, but still make them NOT follow the truth anyway, despite this revelation I give them of what the truth really is! So, I'll enlighten SOME people I have created, but F*CK with them the most, since the other poor saps, don't even know what the truth is, and it will be easier for THEM to live a lie!"

You've got some really SICK programmer there!

And all this REALLY makes sense to you?

No wonder you are sure that life is meaningless!

I think you're forgetting the fact that I'm a human being, and human beings are pre programmed to value things that are meaningless.

More contradictions?

You are PRE-PROGRAMMED, yet you have insight into the TRUTH, yet you "CHOOSE" NOT to follow the truth. How can you "CHOOSE" not to follow the truth if you are pre-programmed? If you are pre-programmed to NOT follow the truth, as you suggest, then what kind of F*CKED UP PROGRAMMER, programs things to NOT follow the truth? You say life is meaningless, yet some really sociopathic programmer, screwing with everything he creates, seems to have alot of PERSONAL MEANING, in what he is doing....

"I'm going to create a set of truths, but then PRE-PROGRAM everyone to NOT follow the truth, and yet, ALLOW the blessed few I CHOOSE, to UNDERSTAND that they are NOT following the truth, but still make them NOT follow the truth anyway, despite this revelation I give them of what the truth really is! So, I'll enlighten SOME people I have created, but F*CK with them the most, since the other poor saps, don't even know what the truth is, and it will be easier for THEM to live a lie!"

You've got some really SICK programmer there!

And all this REALLY makes sense to you?

No wonder you are sure that life is meaningless!

Human nature contradicts truth, that is the human condition. We are animals programmed to eat, sleep, breed, and preserve our own existences. For what purpose? There is no real purpose, it just is. And even if there were a God, and it had a plan for us. What is the point of such concepts as eternal bliss or eternal damnation? What is the point of a God's existence? Why should a God exist to create things, judge them, and then reward/punish them for their actions? What are such things supposed to accomplish other than conditioning children to follow the laws of man? God is too simple of an answer to give as the reason for existence, and it is flawed because you must also describe God's purpose. You could argue that God is infinite, and never had a point of creation, but that also brings into question the nature of God. Why do you favor the idea of a personal God over a mute, collective God made from all of the interactions and movements in the universe?

The hard answer is to say there is no point or value to anything because it is an answer that disturbs and scares many of us. It is more comforting to believe that we will continue to live in spirit without pain with a sky daddy that loves us than it is to acknowledge that our consciousness dies and our bodies turn to dust. I believe it is you who is more emotionally cripple than I because of your need to defend and rationalize the existence of a man made deity. God is like Santa Claus for adults. He is all seeing, and rewards or punishes you based on your actions. If you be good, you are showered with gifts, which serve as a form of praise or blessing. If you are bad, you receive Coal, or more appropriately the burning coals in the lake of fire. The personal God is a device used to control people, and the fact that you continue to defend and make rationalizations for why my opinion differs from yours shows how deeply deluded and controlled you really are.

I don't think anyone in this thread has the place to tell me I'm delusional.

Jimmy claims that "I" am delusional.

And he actually respects me for the most part I think.

I have no respect for someone that cannot properly create an argument without misrepresenting the other side, creating tangential arguments, making ad hominems, etc. You even have to make up rationalizations about my mental and emotional state to assure yourself that I'm some crazy fool! It's hilarious what Skychildren do when confronted with ideas they fear.

You don't even believe what you say, you just think by saying it, you'll get famous, because your words SHOCK normal people. And look, you sure have gotten a lot of attention here...Too much...

You don't even believe what you say, you just think by saying it, you'll get famous, because your words SHOCK normal people. And look, you sure have gotten a lot of attention here...Too much...

Oh look, another idiotic statement. No, I believe in everything I have said thus far. I do not care to be shocking or edgy, I merely made a joke at how people freak out at things that our outside their comfort zone, even when it is not that dangerous or scary.

Woh Craig...
Thats it - a love nursery.

Son of a motherless goat... Did you come up with this?

No bro... God did.

He designed it this way.

That fits it all - All of the triumph and tragedy of the world.

Love Nursery.

It really does FIT gtZip, all your mockery notwithstanding.

No Craig, no mockery here.
That post was like a thunderclap in my head.

And it fits almost any religion.

Human nature contradicts truth, that is the human condition.

No it doesn't.

Truth is simply "what is"

We are beings of free will. We use free will DIFFERENTLY as individuals. There is NO contradiction. There is only free will being EXPRESSED. The fact that people function DIFFERENTLY under free will, would ten to dispute your assertion that we are merely products of PROGRAMMING, and would tend to support, my assertion, that we have FREE WILL.

We are animals programmed to eat, sleep, breed, and preserve our own existences.

First of all, we are only animals BIOLOGICALLY, not SPIRITUALLY. Secondly, we are NOT programmed to do eat, sleep and breed, and preserve our own existences. We have built in INSTICTS to do these things, but we are not PROGRAMMED to do them. The proof of this, is in the fact, that many people, particularly religious people, will reject food, sleep and sex, for spiritual purposes. Even protesters will go on hunger strikes, for POLITICAL reasons, and even starve themselves to death, which is giving up BOTH food, and the preservation of their own existence. This word PROGRAMMING is the WRONG term, as it suggests an ABSOLUTE, that refutes the ability of FREE WILL to intervene.

For what purpose? There is no real purpose, it just is.

Before answering... "what purpose", the question must address "whose" purpose. There are MANY purposes. We all have our individual purposes that we adopt for ourselves, we are also members of nations or groups that have purposes, and then there is God, who as Creator, would have designed us with an ULTIMATE purpose in mind.

When OUR individual purposes, conflict with the ULTIMATE purpose of our Creator, we are MISERABLE. We endure conflict internally. We determine things like... "Life has no purpose"

I have already shared, that God's purpose for us is LOVE, oneness of LOVE with us, as beings of free will.

Again, try and understand. God HAD to give us FREE WILL, in order to have LOVE with us... beings to love and return love. LOVE CANNOT EXIST apart from "free will". For example, I cannot tie a woman to a chair and FORCE her to love me. I cannot even love a woman more than any human has ever loved her, and MAKE her love me because of it. Similarly, if I programmed a robot to APPEAR to love me... to say all the right words, have pre-programmed reactions, perfect for each statement I spoke to the robot... I could PRETEND I am having a real relationship with someone. But it could NEVER be fully satisfying or REAL, because I KNOW that I programmed the responses... it is not coming from another being's FREE CHOICE.

Knowing this, but desiring other beings to have a relationship with, God HAD to give us free will, in order for love to be possible. But the gift of free will, being dangerous and "god like", He had to LIMIT the potential dangers that setting beings like this loose could (and would) cause.

So, He creates a PHYSICAL Cosmos, a TEMPORAL WORLD, and He creates beings who can exist in such a world, but that He can also infuse with His nature, His spark, making us SPIRITUAL BEINGS also, and allowing us to exist in TWO WORLDS, simultaneously. In doing so, this limits the DAMAGE that will occur from people who will ABUSE their free will, to THIS WORLD alone, while simultaneously, God is able to still relate to us SPIRITUALLY, yet without our sins, evils, selfishness... mistakes, to interfere with the ETERNAL WORLD (The true and permanent world)

There is CHAOS in this world, because there is an ever present CONFLICT always occurring. Good and Evil occupying the SAME SPACE.

And even if there were a God, and it had a plan for us. What is the point of such concepts as eternal bliss or eternal damnation?

There is no such thing as "eternal damnation" in the way you understand it. This is a MISTAKE by Christian church leaders of the past, in interpreting scripture correctly.

To explain it, understand this first:

Heaven is nothing more (and nothing less) that ONENESS WITH GOD.

Hell, is nothing more (and nothing less) than SEPARATION FROM GOD.

The reason hell is "eternal" is that, when you die, and lose your body, your spirit will be separated from it. Permanently. Your spirit CANNOT grow and develop, outside the "soil" of your body.

If you die, in SEPARATION from God (hell) it is ETERNAL, because it is UNCHANGEABLE. It cannot be reversed. There are no second chances. There is no such thing as reincarnation. Your spirit cannot "find" another body, to try it all over again. It is done.

Eternal "damnation" means "eternal hell" and "eternal hell" merely means "eternal SEPARATION from God"

The descriptions Jesus used when talking about "hell" was metaphoric. He spoke of people apart from God, and likened them to "Gehenna", this word ends up being used interchangeably with "hell" in the Bible, but Gehenna itself, was a literal geographic place in Jerusalem known as the Valley of Hinnom. This valley was where Israelites dumped their daily refuse. Gehenna is LITERALLY a "trash dump". The trash is not merely left there, but it was BURNED. The fires there are UNQUENCHABLE (never go out) because EVERY DAY, new trash is continually added, by tens of thousands of people. "The worms dieth not" (a figure of speech) because there is an ENDLESS food supply for them each day. The fires never go out, because there is an ENDLESS fuel source.

Jesus, in describing what a person's life is like, WITHOUT GOD, is likening that life, to the most VILE, DISGUSTING, SMELLY, NASTY and DIRTY place, known to Israelites... the town dump. Where the STENCH is appalling because of months and years, of ROTTING, BURNING old food, and frankly... decomposing bodies. Enemies who were killed, were dumped there too. Smoldering flesh. It is easily the most VILE place known to Israelites.

What do they do with trash?

They burn it.

It served no other useful purpose than to burn.

Jesus is attempting to paint a picture in His listener's minds. He is telling them that, without God's love, they are rotting SPIRITUALLY! They are unclean, and vile and putrid, in their souls, because they are living apart from God's love. And like "physical trash" they are USELESS if they continue living such a way. They are good for nothing, but burning.

Unfortunately, this POWERFUL "metaphor" later became misunderstood, particularly by those less familiar with the geography of Jerusalem, and early CHRISTIAN church fathers, took these verses LITERALLY, and decided that there really was a literal PHYSICAL place, called "hell" or "Gehenna" and that God would actually BURN PEOPLE, and since as was pointed out... their fate would be "eternal" then naturally, their assumption, was that somehow this fire burns eternally, and people must not "burn up" in it, but just feel burning, etc... etc... and all the imaginative meanderings that followed, once the foundation was laid, in believing that Jesus was being LITERAL when He was actually speaking METAPHORICALLY.

Jesus ALWAYS taught in "parables" which are illustrative stories, to teach moral lessons, but are not ACTUAL EVENTS. They should have realized that this was just another PARABLE, and not a LITERAL PLACE. But in their zealousness, they made a HUGE error, and many souls have been misguided every since!

Not only have many Christians believed they were saved through "fear", but many others have been led away from the faith, because of a very valid, concern that a loving God could not possibly do such a thing. Sadly, they are RIGHT. And many people have probably damaged a chance at a good relationship with God, based on this fallacy.

In any event...

Jesus used such a technique, because the alternative was this...


"If you don't live your lives with God's love in your hearts, you will CONTINUE as you already are!"

"What? That's it? I don't mind living how I already am... I've been living this way all my life, heck... so do most of the people I know! I can deal with this! No problem! Who needs God then? I have fun sometimes. I make enough to feed myself and live, and support my family. It's not a GREAT life, but what's so bad about it?"

Not much of a motivator.

Jesus did not merely share the BAD of being apart from God though. He also shared that God LOVED all his children. That God even cares for the birds of the air... how much more would He care for his CHILDREN?

But this is not much of a motivator either really.

It is exceedingly difficult to DESCRIBE something, that the person you are sharing with, has never EXPERIENCED. I could share why I love ICE CREAM so much with someone who has never heard of Ice Cream, but it would go something like this...

"Well, it's um... sweet tasting, and... creamy... oh yeah, and frozen... it's really really cold, and sticky and melts all over everything!"

Does that sound like they should run right out and get some ice cream immediately? I can never properly describe what ICE CREAM tastes like, to someone who has never seen or TRIED it before.

How much more difficult to describe what a PERFECT LOVE feels like, when it is given to you? A love like no other, because it comes from the SOURCE of love... and a love that is overwhelming, because the POWER of it, is the same power that CREATED THE UNIVERSE! People know what it is like to be loved, by another human. But how do you describe what a love feels like, that was powerful enough to create the nearly infinite COSMOS!!??


Some of us know what it feels like to be shocked by an electrical outlet, or static electricity, but how many know what it feels like to have a LIGHTING BOLT go through you? Very few. And we can be assured, that THAT FEELING is far more powerful, than being shocked by touching a door handle, when friction has built up.

These things are INCOMPERABLE.

And similarly, it is impossible to EXPLAIN to someone what God's love feels like, or to compare it to the human "feeling" of love, that exists between two limited human beings.

No Craig, no mockery here.
That post was like a thunderclap in my head.

And it fits almost any religion.

Oh, pardon me then... and...

YAY!!!!


I think what is especially BEAUTIFUL about the things God has revealed to me over several decades now, is pecisely that... that He is not only clarifying the Bible and Christianity to me, but revealing UNIVERSAL TRUTHS, that really are, applicable to MOST religions.

And this makes perfect sense, because God as a parental figure, created ALL of us, and He did not reveal parts of Himself and His heart, only to a small group of Israelites, but He has been revealing Himself to ALL who sought Him, and were willing to listen... WORLDWIDE, in MANY NUMEROUS CULTURES the world over!

The understandings He has been showing me all this time, I truly believe, have a tremendous potential to actually UNITE many, if not most religions in the world in key ways... the most important of ways. As opposed to religion being used, as it so often is, as a DIVIDING FORCE, which often prevents people of otherwise good will, from finding common ground, and being able to COOPERATE for the betterment of mankind.

Not only that, but people of NO RELIGION, or even ANTI-RELIGION... even ATHEISTS for that matter! LOL

Because it is only recently, that I understood that "There are no real atheists" (that statement got me in trouble with Colors) but another atheist here, embraced it, and thought it was a cool concept. As did I, when God showed it to me.

Understanding that God literally "IS" the pure power of LOVE ITSELF, which I only grasped about 7 years ago maybe, He made me understand, that people are not truly opposed to Him, but RELIGION, particularly, the often hypocritical aspects of religion.

It was like God telling me...

"They think they don't believe in me, but they would have to not believe in Love, to not believe in me! If they believe in LOVE... They DO believe in me... they just don't realize it!"

It's natural for me to be nice to others because it makes me feel good. Though kindness is admirable, it is still selfish because you still receive something from it in the form of euphoria.

A person that makes a split-second decision to step in front of a bus, and save another life, feels no euphoria. There is no time to enjoy any such feeling. Same with a soldier that jumps on an explosive device to save the other soldiers. There is NO feeling of euphoria. NO TIME to wallow in self-love and self-praise. There is not even time to consider having a legacy as a hero. There will also be no chance to ENJOY the honor that would follow the act.

THEY ARE DEAD.

They made a split-second decision to TRADE their lives for someone else's.

There is NO SELFISH MOTIVATION in it, not even for a fleeting feeling.

It is the HIGHEST LOVE... sacrificing one's life for another. And there is NO OTHER motivation but LOVE for another human being, and the willingness to give up your life, so that ANOTHER may live.

Your views are WRONG... your heart is CLUTTERED and you make a mockery of the sacrifice that countless good-hearted souls have made throughout history.

You should be ASHAMED to even voice, the heartless, juvenile and damaging things you purport to believe. You are narcissistically SELFISH and you justify living that way, by adopting a belief system, that ALL people are as selfish as you!

SHAME ON YOU!

The hard answer is to say there is no point or value to anything because it is an answer that disturbs and scares many of us.

It wouldn't scare me.

I stopped caring along time ago "WHAT" the truth was. I just wanted to "KNOW" what the truth was. The amazing thing is, that once I stopped CARING which way the truth turned out to be, I suddenly got filled with much more of it! It was tremendously EASIER to get truth after that, because I had no vested interest in where it would lead me, or what it would turn out to be.


You are trying to make "truths" FIT YOUR LIFE.

I, on the other hand, make my life, FIT THE TRUTH.

A true seeker, does not try and make the truth fit his life, he makes his life fit the truth!

It is more comforting to believe that we will continue to live in spirit without pain

I embrace pain. It does not motivate me one way or the other. I learned along time ago, that pain serves useful purposes. So I don't go out of my way to avoid it. I don't make decisions based upon what gives me the least pain.

In the physical world, pain serves as a warning. Without pain, we would burn our fingers into uselessness, before realizing that our hands were on a hot burner on the stove, or too close to a fire.

But more significantly, pain serves a useful purpose SPIRITUALLY as well. It is a NATURAL by-product of GROWTH, just as it is PHYSICALLY.

Physically, when we are growing, all of us have experienced what is referred to as "growing pains". Your body is stretching, growing, getting larger. This causes discomfort and pain. Even as an adult later, "working out" causes pain. Running, pumping iron. Runners experience what they call a "second wind" where they run THROUGH the pain, and get a second wind, and can then continue on much further. Weightlifters have a saying too... "No pain, no gain" - They UNDERSTAND that the price of larger muscles, and better physiques, is PAIN.

Most of us, understand the relationship between PAIN and GROWTH.

Sadly however, we shun the truth, that SPIRITUALLY, it is the same thing!

Pain... spiritual pain... emotional pain... accompanies SPIRITUAL GROWTH! But that pain, for so many... is UNBEARABLE! They avoid it, they run from it. Someone gets hurt in a failed relationship, or a one sided relationship, and they often feel as if they NEVER want to go through that again. They will do almost ANYTHING to avoid it... including... shunning or avoiding LOVE ITSELF!

It's funny... sad really, that such an obvious truth PHYSICALLY is easily accepted by almost all people universally, and yet the SAME TRUTH spiritually, is FEARED and AVOIDED!

If you asked a child suffering from growing pains...

"Well, sweetheart, I know you are hurting... but it's part of getting bigger. What if I could stop the pain for you, but as a result, you would remain the small size you are now, and never grow to be an adult... would you want that?"

The answer would ALWAYS be no!

Even a child, is willing to endure the pain, to reach the goal... MATURITY. They want to grow up, be a normal size, and be an adult that gets to make their own decisions. They don't want to be physical dwarfs all their lives, if they have some choice in the matter.

And yet ADULTS, often make the OTHER CHOICE, where pain of the heart is concerned! They CHOOSE to be spiritual dwarfs. To live for themselves, to PROTECT themselves, so they don't get hurt inside!

I actually watched a TV show many years ago, interviewing teenagers, just at their coming adult years, some of them young adults. It was at the beginning of growing awareness of AIDS. The HIV virus had been around for several years, and everyone knew about it by this time. They knew that it resulted in painful death eventually. That it was incurable. That it could be sexually transmitted. Messages were EVERYWHERE about the dangers of unprotected sex.

The show was based around the results of a recent survey. The survey indicated that though young adults and teens, KNEW about AIDS and it's fatality rate, and that it was primarily transmitted through sexual contact... this awareness was not changing BEHAVIORS! They were STILL having unprotected sex, an overwhelming majority of them.

The interviewer discussed their sexual behaviors, and asked this group of individuals...

"So, you guys are ALL aware of the dangers of unprotected sex, right? And the dangers of the HIV virus, that it causes AIDS?"

They all shook their heads, and said yes.

She then asked...

"Raise your hands, if you are still having unprotected sex."

Almost all of them raised their hands.

The interviewer was shocked!

"Why would you still do that, knowing the risks?"

Various answers were given... "It doesn't feel good the other way" - "Hey, if it's your time to go, it's your time to go!" - There was laughter, and high fives.

The interviewer then asked...

"But it could result in death! Don't you guys want to get married one day? Have families?"

Overwhelmingly, they said "No!"

"NO?" she asked. "Why not?"

"Because that's scary!" - "People break up" - "Forget love, I just want to have fun!"


What it showed me, and I could hardly believe it.... was that these young people were MORE AFRAID OF LOVE, than they were of DYING FROM AIDS!!!! Think about that for a moment. They were more afraid of LOVE, than they were of a painful, brutal, crippling death... from AIDS!

Is it any wonder, we often remain spiritually and emotionally stunted in our growth? We fear LOVE. We fear LOVING and being hurt in return for it. So we guard ourselves, run from it, put up walls, and go out of our way, to avoid the pain, that unreturned or unfulfilled love can bring.

Yet, there is no LOVE without VULNERABILITY.

There is no reward without the risk.

And even when we ARE hurt, if we refuse to hate, and take the pain, and choose to not blame LOVE ITSELF for the hurt... when we learn to TAKE IT and accept it (I'm not saying STAY with the person, but accept the pain and deal with it) IT DEEPENS OUR HEARTS. It STRETCHES our hearts. We learn that we can endure more than we thought.

I'm not speaking of seeking out endless streams of abusive relationships. I am talking about LOVE itself. When you can absorb more pain, you realize you can also LOVE MORE. The pain does not STOP you from LOVING. You can learn to love others, even love the world, and no amount of pain will change your heart.

Personally, I've been hurt by SO MANY PEOPLE I tried to help, but it didn't destroy me. God renewed me. My heart became LARGER and DEEPER, and I realized I could endure more than I thought, that I can LOVE MORE than I thought.... that there was actually a potentially ENDLESS WELL, that seemingly NO ONE could deplete, though they took and took. My heart's capacity to endure pain grew... but so did my heart's capacity to LOVE!

And looking back... OF COURSE IT IS ENDLESS!

Because the SOURCE OF IT IS ENDLESS!


Diamonds are considered one of the most precious stones that exists. It is one of the most beautiful gems. It is also the strongest! But how are diamonds made? They begin as COAL, under millions of pounds of earth, and being under all that pressure, for very lengthy amounts of time, the coal becomes a DIAMOND!

Life, and love is full of pressure as well!

Enduring it, and maintaining your heart through the process, can make you a SPIRITUAL DIAMOND!

Mountainclimbers endure alot of pain and strenuous effort to reach the peaks of the highest mountains. And once they reach the pinacle, they are rewarded with a tremendous view from the top, and sense of accomplishment. But if you asked them...

"Which was more rewarding? The climb up the mountain, or the view from the top?"

They could not realistically answer that question.

Because the view from the top, was made that much more satisfying, because of all the work, and overcoming of the pain, that came before it, on the way UP the mountain!

If only we could think that way about our personal relationships, or any other difficult pursuits we attempt, that put our hearts on the line!

We should always try to remember...

"The view from the top, is that much more satisying, because of all that came before!"

Human nature contradicts truth, that is the human condition.

No it doesn't.

Truth is simply "what is"

We are beings of free will. We use free will DIFFERENTLY as individuals. There is NO contradiction. There is only free will being EXPRESSED. The fact that people function DIFFERENTLY under free will, would ten to dispute your assertion that we are merely products of PROGRAMMING, and would tend to support, my assertion, that we have FREE WILL.

We are animals programmed to eat, sleep, breed, and preserve our own existences.

First of all, we are only animals BIOLOGICALLY, not SPIRITUALLY. Secondly, we are NOT programmed to do eat, sleep and breed, and preserve our own existences. We have built in INSTICTS to do these things, but we are not PROGRAMMED to do them. The proof of this, is in the fact, that many people, particularly religious people, will reject food, sleep and sex, for spiritual purposes. Even protesters will go on hunger strikes, for POLITICAL reasons, and even starve themselves to death, which is giving up BOTH food, and the preservation of their own existence. This word PROGRAMMING is the WRONG term, as it suggests an ABSOLUTE, that refutes the ability of FREE WILL to intervene.

For what purpose? There is no real purpose, it just is.

Before answering... "what purpose", the question must address "whose" purpose. There are MANY purposes. We all have our individual purposes that we adopt for ourselves, we are also members of nations or groups that have purposes, and then there is God, who as Creator, would have designed us with an ULTIMATE purpose in mind.

When OUR individual purposes, conflict with the ULTIMATE purpose of our Creator, we are MISERABLE. We endure conflict internally. We determine things like... "Life has no purpose"

I have already shared, that God's purpose for us is LOVE, oneness of LOVE with us, as beings of free will.

Again, try and understand. God HAD to give us FREE WILL, in order to have LOVE with us... beings to love and return love. LOVE CANNOT EXIST apart from "free will". For example, I cannot tie a woman to a chair and FORCE her to love me. I cannot even love a woman more than any human has ever loved her, and MAKE her love me because of it. Similarly, if I programmed a robot to APPEAR to love me... to say all the right words, have pre-programmed reactions, perfect for each statement I spoke to the robot... I could PRETEND I am having a real relationship with someone. But it could NEVER be fully satisfying or REAL, because I KNOW that I programmed the responses... it is not coming from another being's FREE CHOICE.

Knowing this, but desiring other beings to have a relationship with, God HAD to give us free will, in order for love to be possible. But the gift of free will, being dangerous and "god like", He had to LIMIT the potential dangers that setting beings like this loose could (and would) cause.

So, He creates a PHYSICAL Cosmos, a TEMPORAL WORLD, and He creates beings who can exist in such a world, but that He can also infuse with His nature, His spark, making us SPIRITUAL BEINGS also, and allowing us to exist in TWO WORLDS, simultaneously. In doing so, this limits the DAMAGE that will occur from people who will ABUSE their free will, to THIS WORLD alone, while simultaneously, God is able to still relate to us SPIRITUALLY, yet without our sins, evils, selfishness... mistakes, to interfere with the ETERNAL WORLD (The true and permanent world)

There is CHAOS in this world, because there is an ever present CONFLICT always occurring. Good and Evil occupying the SAME SPACE.

And even if there were a God, and it had a plan for us. What is the point of such concepts as eternal bliss or eternal damnation?

There is no such thing as "eternal damnation" in the way you understand it. This is a MISTAKE by Christian church leaders of the past, in interpreting scripture correctly.

To explain it, understand this first:

Heaven is nothing more (and nothing less) that ONENESS WITH GOD.

Hell, is nothing more (and nothing less) than SEPARATION FROM GOD.

The reason hell is "eternal" is that, when you die, and lose your body, your spirit will be separated from it. Permanently. Your spirit CANNOT grow and develop, outside the "soil" of your body.

If you die, in SEPARATION from God (hell) it is ETERNAL, because it is UNCHANGEABLE. It cannot be reversed. There are no second chances. There is no such thing as reincarnation. Your spirit cannot "find" another body, to try it all over again. It is done.

Eternal "damnation" means "eternal hell" and "eternal hell" merely means "eternal SEPARATION from God"

The descriptions Jesus used when talking about "hell" was metaphoric. He spoke of people apart from God, and likened them to "Gehenna", this word ends up being used interchangeably with "hell" in the Bible, but Gehenna itself, was a literal geographic place in Jerusalem known as the Valley of Hinnom. This valley was where Israelites dumped their daily refuse. Gehenna is LITERALLY a "trash dump". The trash is not merely left there, but it was BURNED. The fires there are UNQUENCHABLE (never go out) because EVERY DAY, new trash is continually added, by tens of thousands of people. "The worms dieth not" (a figure of speech) because there is an ENDLESS food supply for them each day. The fires never go out, because there is an ENDLESS fuel source.

Jesus, in describing what a person's life is like, WITHOUT GOD, is likening that life, to the most VILE, DISGUSTING, SMELLY, NASTY and DIRTY place, known to Israelites... the town dump. Where the STENCH is appalling because of months and years, of ROTTING, BURNING old food, and frankly... decomposing bodies. Enemies who were killed, were dumped there too. Smoldering flesh. It is easily the most VILE place known to Israelites.

What do they do with trash?

They burn it.

It served no other useful purpose than to burn.

Jesus is attempting to paint a picture in His listener's minds. He is telling them that, without God's love, they are rotting SPIRITUALLY! They are unclean, and vile and putrid, in their souls, because they are living apart from God's love. And like "physical trash" they are USELESS if they continue living such a way. They are good for nothing, but burning.

Unfortunately, this POWERFUL "metaphor" later became misunderstood, particularly by those less familiar with the geography of Jerusalem, and early CHRISTIAN church fathers, took these verses LITERALLY, and decided that there really was a literal PHYSICAL place, called "hell" or "Gehenna" and that God would actually BURN PEOPLE, and since as was pointed out... their fate would be "eternal" then naturally, their assumption, was that somehow this fire burns eternally, and people must not "burn up" in it, but just feel burning, etc... etc... and all the imaginative meanderings that followed, once the foundation was laid, in believing that Jesus was being LITERAL when He was actually speaking METAPHORICALLY.

Jesus ALWAYS taught in "parables" which are illustrative stories, to teach moral lessons, but are not ACTUAL EVENTS. They should have realized that this was just another PARABLE, and not a LITERAL PLACE. But in their zealousness, they made a HUGE error, and many souls have been misguided every since!

Not only have many Christians believed they were saved through "fear", but many others have been led away from the faith, because of a very valid, concern that a loving God could not possibly do such a thing. Sadly, they are RIGHT. And many people have probably damaged a chance at a good relationship with God, based on this fallacy.

In any event...

Jesus used such a technique, because the alternative was this...


"If you don't live your lives with God's love in your hearts, you will CONTINUE as you already are!"

"What? That's it? I don't mind living how I already am... I've been living this way all my life, heck... so do most of the people I know! I can deal with this! No problem! Who needs God then? I have fun sometimes. I make enough to feed myself and live, and support my family. It's not a GREAT life, but what's so bad about it?"

Not much of a motivator.

Jesus did not merely share the BAD of being apart from God though. He also shared that God LOVED all his children. That God even cares for the birds of the air... how much more would He care for his CHILDREN?

But this is not much of a motivator either really.

It is exceedingly difficult to DESCRIBE something, that the person you are sharing with, has never EXPERIENCED. I could share why I love ICE CREAM so much with someone who has never heard of Ice Cream, but it would go something like this...

"Well, it's um... sweet tasting, and... creamy... oh yeah, and frozen... it's really really cold, and sticky and melts all over everything!"

Does that sound like they should run right out and get some ice cream immediately? I can never properly describe what ICE CREAM tastes like, to someone who has never seen or TRIED it before.

How much more difficult to describe what a PERFECT LOVE feels like, when it is given to you? A love like no other, because it comes from the SOURCE of love... and a love that is overwhelming, because the POWER of it, is the same power that CREATED THE UNIVERSE! People know what it is like to be loved, by another human. But how do you describe what a love feels like, that was powerful enough to create the nearly infinite COSMOS!!??


Some of us know what it feels like to be shocked by an electrical outlet, or static electricity, but how many know what it feels like to have a LIGHTING BOLT go through you? Very few. And we can be assured, that THAT FEELING is far more powerful, than being shocked by touching a door handle, when friction has built up.

These things are INCOMPERABLE.

And similarly, it is impossible to EXPLAIN to someone what God's love feels like, or to compare it to the human "feeling" of love, that exists between two limited human beings.

8 Pages, and you still do not understand. You continue to argue with flawed logic based almost purely on faith and emotion, you continue to draw silly conclusions from the simplest of statements, and you continue this because you are delusional.

Your arguments are all based on the notion that there is a such thing as a personal and intelligent creator. That notion is inherently flawed, as I have explained pages earlier.

It is clear that you are adamant on believing and defending your belief in a personal God, and you merely seek to try to alienate me as an emotional cripple to to justify your opinion that I am wrong without actually attacking my arguments with solid fact. I think the only time you have used facts in this entire argument is when you explained the concept of Hell and Gehenna, which had little to do with my actual argument. You missed the whole point of what I was saying, and I have been saying for the past eight pages.

I will not continue. Take that however you will, let it feed your ego and reaffirm your faith in skydaddy. (Which God DO you believe in? Is it Zeus, Apollo, Odin, Yahweh? Who is it? and why do you choose that particular one?)

Your arguments are all based on the notion that there is a such thing as a personal and intelligent creator. That notion is inherently flawed, as I have explained pages earlier.

Maybe I missed it? I end up quoting pieces of your responses to make them easier to find.

So... How is the concept of an intelligent creator... "flawed"?

It is clear that you are adamant on believing and defending your belief in a personal God

Well, yeah. Because I have a relationship with Him. It would almost be like you telling me that my wife doesn't exist, even though we have a relationship together, and we communicate regularly.

and you merely seek to try to alienate me as an emotional cripple to to justify your opinion that I am wrong without actually attacking my arguments with solid fact.

I have suggested you have mental disorders, not that you are an "emotional cripple". And I have suggested that, based on YOUR OWN WORDS, and not in any disguised attempt to misconstrue your positions, or make personal attacks on you.

Your views on the VALUE of people, and particularly the LACK OF VALUE of handicapped people, is so offensive, that they display a complete lack of empathy or compassion. It's not just offended me, but several others who have commented on it. One of them, who had agreed with you on a separate issue, found you so offensive, he left the forum for good.

As to your "arguments" they are weak, illogical and inconsistent. When I point this out, you defend why they would be inconsistent. Which itself is absurd.

Please separate our debates, from my opinions of you personally.

Your comments and positions, have displayed elements of sociopathy, and narcissism to me. I was hoping I was wrong, and that you were merely suffering from a bad life, and used all this as a defense mechanism, but nope... you cling to such views, and even defend them.

They might have went over well in Nazi Germany, where the intrinsic value of human beings was relative, and for the sake of "science" they practiced brutal experiments on children, and twins, etc... but that lack of value of humanity, doesn't go over well with most Americans.

Sorry.

(Which God DO you believe in? Is it Zeus, Apollo, Odin, Yahweh? Who is it? and why do you choose that particular one?)

Creator God.

The same God that the majority of the world's religions worship.

That one.

He has alot of nicknames, but His believers know who they are praying to, and more importantly... HE knows who they are praying to!