General Music Chat

That was beautiful, Craig

That was beautiful, Craig

LMAO!


This was fun. We were kind of like a tag-team of "reality" doing full body slams at will, until 4:30 in the morning! LOL

This was much more entertaining than the TV was!

Hey! Where did Cretin go?

Don't tell me he's "transformed" already!

No one cares what YOU desire. It's all about "ME". Caring about YOUR desires, requires some measure of respect for you as equally important to "me", and as you stated, you are the most important person in the universe, and your happiness takes precedent over anything else.

Of course. My fear of death is a result of my own selfish desires to live, and I will fight to stay alive if someone tried to kill me.

I still have things I would like to do

Oh, I see. So murder, which is merely accelerating someone else's transformation, is not looked badly upon, merely because of "fear" as a motivation (the concept that I fear death, so I desire to remain in this form, and I accomplish this by extending the same courtesy to others, in the hopes they won't kill me) but additionally, there could be OTHER motivators for avoiding death.... like... "I still have things I would like to do"? Hmm... so, even though this life is "meaningless", you WANT to remain in it longer, well... in your current form. How meaningless could it really be, if you cling to it, and want to remain? I thought you were enlightened? Why do you fear transforming? You occupy a brief and limited area, in space time currently.

I am not afraid of death itself because it is inevitable, but I am afraid of dying before I do everything that I seek to do while I am alive. Why do I want to live? Why do I want to make art and music? I suffered the first nine years of my life in and out of hospitals, I have been clinically dead, and near death a few times and I feel like I may as well keep living after others put such effort into keeping me alive. And since I'm alive, I may as well do something to entertain myself and others until the time comes for me to die naturally.

Oops... spoke to soon.

Welcome back Cretin!

I suffered the first nine years of my life in and out of hospitals, I have been clinically dead, and near death a few times

...






I had a cold once...







...

Drug overdoses, maybe?

That would explain the retardation...

Drug overdoses, maybe?

That would explain the retardation...

Actually, leg amputation, scoliosis, chronic Bronchitis, Pneumonia, hernia, throat dilation, and a near fatal injury caused by a throat dilation.

My fear of death is a result of my own selfish desires to live, and I will fight to stay alive if someone tried to kill me.

It would seem then, that your "selfish" desire to live, would depend upon others, UNSELFISHLY not taking your life. Yet we are all selfish? You claim that life is meaningless, yet others have VALUED your life, apparently more than you value it yourself. It's illogical to fear death, yet you fear it. The reasons are insignificant. It's YOUR terminologies being used, not ours.

I am not afraid of death itself because it is inevitable, but I am afraid of dying before I do everything that I seek to do while I am alive.

Which makes no sense, because life is cyclical you say, we are merely matter, subject to the laws of physics... no new matter is created, it only transforms. You literally have ETERNITY and potentially endless lifetimes, to write all the music you want. The matter in you, organized to produce an "artist" this go around.... why wouldn't it do so again, potentially, endless amounts of times over, since time is no object. And hey... maybe you would not have the distractions of having been hospital bound... maybe you will be a better musician, and even better looking, next time around.

I think we are getting to something more REAL now...

Either, your philosophies are bullsh*t, or you don't realy believe them yourself. Which is it?

Why do I want to live?

I'm still trying to figure that out, quite frankly. Why DO you want to live? Life is meaningless.... it's basic nature is selfishness. Nothing is consistent or enduring, it is fruitless to believe in anything. Why the hell would you want to remain in a place like that?

Why do I want to make art and music? I suffered the first nine years of my life in and out of hospitals, I have been clinically dead, and near death a few times and I feel like I may as well keep living after others put such effort into keeping me alive.

That sounds like you have sacrificed your own selfish instincts, to protect the efforts and feelings of others. Why would you betray human nature that way? Why would you betray the order of the universe? Why would their feelings or efforts matter to you? It's all about you isn't it?

Or is it?

And since I'm alive, I may as well do something to entertain myself and others until the time comes for me to die naturally.

But EVERYTHING is already natural. And nothing matters because it is cyclical anyway. And the phrase... "may as well" indicates being resigned to something. Living a life of "may as well" does not comport with your previous statement of "live life to the fullest".

And if there is truly no meaning to life, then why would you have this urge to continue in it? We are all motivated ONLY by selfishness, yet EMPATHY comes from somewhere. How is this possible? You claimed that doing good deeds for others is always selfishly motivated... I can prove that this is not true, but put that aside for the moment...

Explain empathy to me.

Where is the "selfishness" in EMPATHY?

Because it is not an ACT which one can be praised for, but instead, a FEELING. A COMPASSIONATE feeling or emotion, of being able to put one's self into another's circumstances... into another's shoes, and CARE, and UNDERSTAND, how they must be feeling.

What is the selfishness in that?


Let's stop playing around, and get SERIOUS with one another. Because I don't believe you TRULY believe your own theories. I think you are fighting for a belief system that explains WHY your life feels meaningless at times, when something inside you DOESN'T WANT your life to be meaningless.

I don't think you really buy into your own philosophies.

And quite honestly, those philosophies are going to DESTROY your life eventually, not save it, and not elevate it.

Cretin,

Whenever you get back to this thread, I want to know something else... truthfully... heart to heart...

"Is it at all possible, that you have been so damaged or hurt or neglected in life, that you have embraced a philosophy of selfishness and meaninglessness, as a PROTECTION mechanism?"

Please answer this truthfully.

Do it in private email if necessary. I won't speak a word about it publicly if you want. It can just be you and me, heart to heart, really investigating whether life has any intrisic value or not, and whether or not healing is a possibility, even for the most wounded of souls.

I have nothing to prove to anyone here.

I feel genuine concern for YOU.

That takes priority in my heart, over the outcome of any intellectual debate, or anything else.

I'm not going to read through the entire thread of back-and-forth, but I wanted to chime in on this:

I think for some people God is a necessity, and if the current slate of Gods and religions didn't exist, then someone would have to invent a God and a religion just for these people (and that's pretty much what I think happened anyway).

I think for some people - maybe most people - they just lack something inside them that allows them to cope with life as a sentient being. The universe is big, mysterious, wondrous, and dangerous, and so people stand (rightfully) in awe of it, and ask questions like "Why am I here?" and "What the heck should I be doing in this massively place?" And so we invented a God to fill in that gap; to provide answers (real or imagined) that can bring some measure of comfort to us and allow us to get on with our lives.

For others, a rare few it seems, these questions don't require an answer; they don't require the invention of a God or religion.


At least, that's my take on it.

My last word:

God may or may not exist. It is not within our realm of knowledge to know either way. People who definitively state that they know either way are delusional, but if it helps them get through this life it's fine with me. Peace to all.

O k. Then as I see it, we have it covered pretty well.

3 men see a house standing in a field.

The atheist knows that it built itself plank at a time through evolution. The tree became some boards, and in time the boards assembled themselves to become a house.

The agnostic doesn't know how it could have gotten there. He thinks that it could have evolved from some boards that evolved from some trees, or on the other hand, maybe someone built it. But he doesn't know for sure..

The believer knows the house was built by someone.

Then again, maybe the house is an illusion, or a mirage, or a hallucination. Either way it doesn't really matter, and we'll never really know for sure.

"...where does the concept of MORALITY itself gain any AUTHORITY, without a supernatural being HIGHER than the power of mere men, being it's source?"

From the higher authority of a king or tribal chief, or even from being outnumbered by others who do have that moral belief. No one yet has proven to me that laws, rules, or morals need come from a god.

The results of murder, theft, envy, jealousy, rape, incest, etc., are easily seen in any group of ppl. Here is your basic "truth" - that this behavior will result in violence, disharmony, & disunion within the tribal unit, & therefore this behavior must not be allowed within the tribe.

Of course, performing those actions on those outside the tribe will be allowed, to a degree, but we must remember that they could result in retaliation, & eventually to war. Still, it is allowed. This form of "morality" only applies to the tribal unit in question.

Since we do not apply these rules of behavior to entire societies, we have war. We covet better grazing ground. We covet the minerals & metals in the ground. We covet the holy land. We covet the oil under the ground.

We find it necessary to kill to better the lives of our ppl, or to increase our power, or to better protect our lands from incursion.

We allow the majority to rule, & they become decadent from using those ppl who don't fit the majority's mold, either by color, or beliefs, or those who are weaker, to make life better for the majority.

Once we collect together, & form a society, we often seem to forget or ignore that ALL life seeks to control its destinty, & seeks comforts & the means to flourish, & we often use those lives for our own ends, so the end result is that the powerful are the ones who may be comfortable, & flourish, with all of thier needs fulfilled at the cost of others. They claim this "right" because of the balance between thier power & the limit of resources.

This can be seen happening throughout our own history, much as you like to wave the flag & claim our greatness. In the beginning, we had slaves to do the drudgery work, & they were used until they were used up. Then we began using ppl economically, paying those who did the hardest & the most dangerous work far less than thier work was actually worth to us. We limited ppl's freedoms & even thier "right" to associate with those in power. We gave them no control in the process until they had uprisings & fought back, & made things intolerable for the powerful.

As we "evolved" as a society, due to these uprisings, these things began to change, but there is still a far way to go. Even now, we use ppl from outside our borders to do the drudgery work, & pay them subminimum wages to do it, & limit thier freedoms, disallowing them to participate in the process they are such an integral part of.

Are we still evolving as a society? I think not. We fight to keep ppl from getting health care, calling them lazy & unproductive. We continue to use illegal aliens in our work force, & pay them such low wages they have to resort to living in conditions that rival the conditions of serfs in the dark ages. The power has been given, once again, to those few who own the companies, & they are reducing our ability to control our destinies, reducing our comforts, & reducing our very freedoms on an almost daily basis, while those in power continue to acquire wealth at a rate unheard of in the past. At this point in time, the majority no longer even has the power.

On individual bases, we can be very empathic & sympathetic, helping & sharing with those with whom we have things in common. When it comes to the society, however, it is most often that which displays the very worst attributes of ppl. And when it comes to the large, soul-less corporation, all bets are off, especially when they have the power to buy our gov't piece by piece, & gain total control over every aspect of our lives.