This is a MUSIC forum. Irrelevant or disrespectful posts/topics will be removed by Admin. Please report any forum spam or inappropriate posts HERE.

All users can post to this forum on general music topics.

Moderators: bandmixmod1, jimmy990, spikedace

#103243 by Cretindilettante
Thu Mar 11, 2010 1:05 am
MattKi wrote:
Cretindilettante wrote:You're basing this on a book written, edited, and translated several times by human beings. It's hardly reliable.


To be fair, modern scholars both Jewish and Christian, still work on the Torah and the translation from the oldest texts is deemed to be fairly accurate. However, I agree that it is understood to be written by man.

Still, languages evolve and you're not always going to be able to get a concrete translation. I would also like to point out that many stories from the Old Testament, to my knowledge are pretty much stolen from other, older religions. The flood, for example, was an idea that came from one of the many known Greek/Roman creation stories where Zeus created Golden, Bronze, and Silver beings. They kept displeasing him, so he eliminated them in various ways, one of which was a flood. The garden of eden story borrows an element from the story of Prometheus in a way, in that both Prometheus and Eve defy the orders of God to taste the fruit of knowledge/claim the fires of illumination.

#103245 by MattKi
Thu Mar 11, 2010 1:08 am
sanshouheil wrote:
Dude to be honest the most Christian response I could have to that is you dont have a freaking clue what your taking about.
Only a f**k moron thinks Christains are any less sinners.
Holy sh*t batman!!


Where did I say that "christians are any less sinners"?

Now that's the sort of response I come to expect. No reasoned argument or discussion...just an insulting attack. That's about as far away from Christianity as you can get. Congratulations.

#103246 by gbheil
Thu Mar 11, 2010 1:10 am
Your welcome.

#103247 by MattKi
Thu Mar 11, 2010 1:12 am
sanshouheil wrote:Your welcome.


Snappy come-back.


I'm devastated by your eloquence.
#103248 by CraigMaxim
Thu Mar 11, 2010 1:12 am
MattKi wrote:
Cretindilettante wrote:You're basing this on a book written, edited, and translated several times by human beings. It's hardly reliable.


To be fair, modern scholars both Jewish and Christian, still work on the Torah and the translation from the oldest texts is deemed to be fairly accurate. However, I agree that it is understood to be written by man.



Very good. :-)


Christians who are strongly fundamental, tend to proclaim quite publicly, that... "The Bible is the INSPIRED word of God". They just forget what the term "Inspired" literally means, after they have made that proclamation. :-(

#103249 by Cretindilettante
Thu Mar 11, 2010 1:23 am
CraigMaxim wrote:
MattKi wrote:
Cretindilettante wrote:You're basing this on a book written, edited, and translated several times by human beings. It's hardly reliable.


To be fair, modern scholars both Jewish and Christian, still work on the Torah and the translation from the oldest texts is deemed to be fairly accurate. However, I agree that it is understood to be written by man.



Very good. :-)


Christians who are strongly fundamental, tend to proclaim quite publicly, that... "The Bible is the INSPIRED word of God". They just forget what the term "Inspired" literally means, after they have made that proclamation. :-(



I don't think a perfect, loving God would inspire such verses as Hosea 13:16: The people of Samaria must bear their guilt, because they have rebelled against their God. They will fall by the sword; their little ones will be dashed to the ground, their pregnant women ripped open.

All books are works of men, and reflective of their author's desires, fears, etc. The Bible is no different.

If you need a book written by someone else to provide you with a moral foundation, then I pity you.
#103251 by CraigMaxim
Thu Mar 11, 2010 1:36 am
Cretindilettante wrote:
I would also like to point out that many stories from the Old Testament, to my knowledge are pretty much stolen from other, older religions. The flood, for example, was an idea that came from one of the many known Greek/Roman creation stories where Zeus created Golden, Bronze, and Silver beings. They kept displeasing him, so he eliminated them in various ways, one of which was a flood. The garden of eden story borrows an element from the story of Prometheus in a way, in that both Prometheus and Eve defy the orders of God to taste the fruit of knowledge/claim the fires of illumination.



The world is replete with "Flood Myth" stories from antiquity. As well as other Creation stories, which resemble the Bible's telling of this story.

When you have studied "myths" however, you will find general agreement, that mythology, while not ACCURATE from a literal point of view, nonetheless, contain "TRUTHS" that are revealed through their stories.... which, after all, is the REAL POINT of them.

That the Bible includes Creation Myths, should not, in itself be a litmus test, for it's veracity regarding other historical facts, or even as a book of guiding principles, offering lessons and teachings of tremendous value.

Even historians would likely agree, that NO BOOK, has more impact on humanity throughout history, than has the Bible. It is CONSISTENTLY the best selling, most read, book in history.

It's value and historical impact should never be underestimated.

I agree with you, that the Bible contains certain myths, that were known to the population at the time, but it also contains historical records, poetry, philosophy, song lyrics, prophecy, and more.

As the term "bible" itself means.... It is a "book of books".

It should no more easily be dismissed out of hand, because it retains some myths taught for generations, than Charles Darwin should be dismissed merely because his conclusions were not accurate in every detail, or Einstein's theories should not be dismissed, merely because some have been proven wrong by modern scientific findings.

It is the ERROR of latter day Christians in particular, who have set themselves up, by espousing the idea that the Bible was "WRITTEN BY GOD HIMSELF" rather than accepting what THE BIBLE says of itself.... Namely, that it is "INSPIRED" by God.

#103252 by MattKi
Thu Mar 11, 2010 1:41 am
Cretindilettante wrote:Hosea 13:16: The people of Samaria must bear their guilt, because they have rebelled against their God. They will fall by the sword; their little ones will be dashed to the ground, their pregnant women ripped open.


Interesting passage - I'll have to read that again...what does the rest say? Does it say who is instructed to do this or is it fortelling the fate of Samarians by some unkown foe?

Serious question 'cos I don't know and will have to look it up. I'm just wondering if you're implying that the author was telling God's "children" to pick up swords, nip over to Samaria and sort 'em out?
#103253 by Cretindilettante
Thu Mar 11, 2010 1:56 am
MattKi wrote:
Cretindilettante wrote:Hosea 13:16: The people of Samaria must bear their guilt, because they have rebelled against their God. They will fall by the sword; their little ones will be dashed to the ground, their pregnant women ripped open.


Interesting passage - I'll have to read that again...what does the rest say? Does it say who is instructed to do this or is it fortelling the fate of Samarians by some unkown foe?

Serious question 'cos I don't know and will have to look it up. I'm just wondering if you're implying that the author was telling God's "children" to pick up swords, nip over to Samaria and sort 'em out?


When Ephraim spoke, men trembled;
he was exalted in Israel.
But he became guilty of Baal worship and died.

2 Now they sin more and more;
they make idols for themselves from their silver,
cleverly fashioned images,
all of them the work of craftsmen.
It is said of these people,
"They offer human sacrifice
and kiss [a] the calf-idols."

3 Therefore they will be like the morning mist,
like the early dew that disappears,
like chaff swirling from a threshing floor,
like smoke escaping through a window.

4 "But I am the LORD your God,
who brought you out of [b] Egypt.
You shall acknowledge no God but me,
no Savior except me.

5 I cared for you in the desert,
in the land of burning heat.

6 When I fed them, they were satisfied;
when they were satisfied, they became proud;
then they forgot me.

7 So I will come upon them like a lion,
like a leopard I will lurk by the path.

8 Like a bear robbed of her cubs,
I will attack them and rip them open.
Like a lion I will devour them;
a wild animal will tear them apart.

9 "You are destroyed, O Israel,
because you are against me, against your helper.

10 Where is your king, that he may save you?
Where are your rulers in all your towns,
of whom you said,
'Give me a king and princes'?

11 So in my anger I gave you a king,
and in my wrath I took him away.

12 The guilt of Ephraim is stored up,
his sins are kept on record.

13 Pains as of a woman in childbirth come to him,
but he is a child without wisdom;
when the time arrives,
he does not come to the opening of the womb.

14 "I will ransom them from the power of the grave [c] ;
I will redeem them from death.
Where, O death, are your plagues?
Where, O grave, [d] is your destruction?
"I will have no compassion,

15 even though he thrives among his brothers.
An east wind from the LORD will come,
blowing in from the desert;
his spring will fail
and his well dry up.
His storehouse will be plundered
of all its treasures.

16 The people of Samaria must bear their guilt,
because they have rebelled against their God.
They will fall by the sword;
their little ones will be dashed to the ground,
their pregnant women ripped open."
#103254 by CraigMaxim
Thu Mar 11, 2010 1:57 am
Cretindilettante wrote:
If you need a book written by someone else to provide you with a moral foundation, then I pity you.



Well friend, pity the WORLD, and pity HUMAN HISTORY, because it is RELIGION and RELIGIOUS BELIEFS that have been the primary force behind the "concept" of morality.

For that matter, it is RELIGIOUS TEACHINGS that were the basis of "LAW" itself. Do you think that the "Rule of law" has any place in civilized society? Thank religion for that concept. ;-)

And while you are at it, PITY the AMERICAN DECLARATION OF INDEPENDENCE, which preceded our very CONSTITUTION, upon which ALL laws in America are derived.

There is a very specific reason that America's Forefathers included the phrase.... "We are endowed by our CREATOR with certain INALIENABLE rights..."

Do you even understand the value or POWER of that statement?

It is there, because it is an AFFIRMATION to not only the King of England, but any dictators which would follow, that it is "GOD" and "GOD ALONE" which gave man FREEDOM. And what "God" has given.... NO MAN has a right to TAKE AWAY!

Without those words, without that concept, then FREEDOM ITSELF, the right to live our own lives as FREE MEN, would be completely subject to the will of anyone who would Lord over us. Those very words and concept is what helped INSPIRE the American Revolution.

"You have no RIGHT to enslave me... "GOD" made me a free man by birth!"

Similarly, where does the concept of MORALITY itself gain any AUTHORITY, without a supernatural being HIGHER than the power of mere men, being it's source?

Without some ULTIMATE authority, current public opinion.... polls, become the sole arbitor of RIGHT and WRONG. Living in a free country, in a modern age, you may not take umbrage to that point, but history is replete with times of great excess, or outright barbarism, and without some ultimate authority that HUMANS feel answerable to, there would be little stopping such barbarism to flourish again.

Children with handicaps are a burden to an ever increasing world population? Let's euthanize them. Well, doing so BEFORE BIRTH is not doing enough... let's increase the age of euthanasia to, say... age 18 months!"

Don't think this is possible? One of Obama's current csars has made past statements in speeches, that he doesn't even feel a child younger than 12 or 18 months, should be afforded full rights under the law, since they are still in a beginning developmental stage, and cannot communicate fully yet.

I may have the window of months wrong, but it is something close to that. He is LITERALLY advocating the option to euthanize children ALREADY BORN!

What gives us Morals my friend?

Our feelings? Our opinions?

Are these immutable and unchanging?

Is true morality changeable?

If something seems a more INTELLIGENT solution, does that make it moral? Who decides?

#103255 by MattKi
Thu Mar 11, 2010 2:01 am
Thanks Cretindilettante,

Looks to me like the author's just trying to scare people into falling into line.

Granted, there's a bit of a blood-thirsty Tarantinoesque spin on it but - hey - if folks don't listen...put the fear of God into 'em?
#103256 by CraigMaxim
Thu Mar 11, 2010 2:10 am
Cretindilettante wrote:
I don't think a perfect, loving God would inspire such verses as...



Well Cretin, I doubt very seriously that a LOVING God, would institute a law that children who speak direspectfully to their parents should be STONED TO DEATH!

But the Bible says EXACTLY that!

Which is why INSPIRATION should always be taken into account for what it is, particularly PRE-JESUS. It could very well be, that through inspiration of God, man understood that SIN LEADS TO DEATH, and maybe God inspired them to understand that smaller sins lead to greater sins.... It is entirely possible that ancient men, just getting acquainted with even the CONCEPT of morality and goodness from a moral God, went a little overboard, and received the inspirations through translucent, rather than transparent glass.... as even Paul, thousands of years later wrote in the Bible, that we understand ONLY IN PART.

But whatever doubts you or anyone else could have in the Old Testament revelations, there should be little doubt, of the Bible's detailing of Jesus' actions and words, giving us the CLEARER EXAMPLE of God's deepest heart, and desire for our behaviors.

You can judge men, from the beginining of recorded civilization, many THOUSAND OF YEARS years ago, for how perfectly their ability to receive revelation from God was, but really....

Learn something from the example of Jesus, before you decide that YOU should be the arbitor of what is moral or not.

#103257 by MattKi
Thu Mar 11, 2010 2:10 am
CraigMaxim wrote:He is LITERALLY advocating the option to euthanize children ALREADY BORN!


I love the way you guys interperet what people say.

He " LITERALLY" advocated that?


I'm going to bed to reflect!

Night y'all...
#103258 by Cretindilettante
Thu Mar 11, 2010 2:14 am
For that matter, it is RELIGIOUS TEACHINGS that were the basis of "LAW" itself. Do you think that the "Rule of law" has any place in civilized society? Thank religion for that concept. ;-)


Religious teachings were also the basis of scientific thought for many years. Religion is out dated.

Similarly, where does the concept of MORALITY itself gain any AUTHORITY, without a supernatural being HIGHER than the power of mere men, being it's source?

It doesn't. There is no good or evil, only intelligent and stupid. If I kill you for money and don't ever get caught, it's smart because I have your money and maintained my freedom. The only reason it's condemned is because people are afraid of someone killing them for their own benefit.
But then again, violence is out dated as well. It is no longer necessary with current technological advancements and at this point it would just impede our progress so it's a moot point.

Without some ULTIMATE authority, current public opinion.... polls, become the sole arbitor of RIGHT and WRONG. Living in a free country, in a modern age, you may not take umbrage to that point, but history is replete with times of great excess, or outright barbarism, and without some ultimate authority that HUMANS feel answerable to, there would be little stopping such barbarism to flourish again.

See above, violence is outdated, as is barbarism. It does not benefit a technological society.

Children with handicaps are a burden to an ever increasing world population? Let's euthanize them. Well, doing so BEFORE BIRTH is not doing enough... let's increase the age of euthanasia to, say... age 18 months!"
Handicaps are a burden to society if they inhibit physical and mental capabilities to the point of that particular human being completely useless to society. I'm not paying money so a vegetable or some kid with incredibly fragile bones that will live for 5 years can live while I bust my ass doing something productive.

I may have the window of months wrong, but it is something close to that. He is LITERALLY advocating the option to euthanize children ALREADY BORN!

Nice strawman. It's irrelevant to my initial argument.

What gives us Morals my friend?

Fear, empathy, and selfishness.
Our feelings? Our opinions?

Fear, empathy, selfishness
Is true morality changeable?

Yes.
#103259 by Cretindilettante
Thu Mar 11, 2010 2:20 am
MattKi wrote:
CraigMaxim wrote:He is LITERALLY advocating the option to euthanize children ALREADY BORN!


I love the way you guys interperet what people say.

He " LITERALLY" advocated that?


I'm going to bed to reflect!

Night y'all...


I believe the correct term for the typical Christian's critical reading skills is "strawman" because that's all they ever seem to be able to argue.

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 2 guests