General Music Chat

So no comment on After Forever? Or the fact that it's on their third album while N.I.B. was on their first?

It's interesting.

How's that?

Look, understand... I am not superstitious, and I don't see the boogieman behind every door, or live in fear in my life. I don't fear death, so I end up not fearing much of anything else either.

I believe that many bands are just posers. That they are not satanists at all, but playing a role, as entertainers, to elicit shock value, make noise, get attention, and ultimately... achieve fame and fortune.

I'm quite sure, that some of these bands have members who are truly satanists, or even just atheists.... but I am also sure, that many are putting on an act for young kids, who buy into it all, as a form of rebellion.

That said, being impressionable as they are, and not always discerning the difference between reality, and theater.... some kids "DO" go off the deep end, with music such as this. I wish I could remember the details, but many years ago, there was a study done, which measured brain patterns in kid's heads, from various music they listened to. Interestingly enough, thrash metal (I think it was thrash metal, or else speed metal) produced a pattern in their brain that was unrecognizable, or unlike anything else they had witnessed. I guess the conclusion was, that some forms of metal, really sent the adolescent brain off the charts. And I suppose based on that, it could be inferred that kids REALLY ARE affected, by the music they listen to... and even very adversely affected, so that it could literally be HARMFUL to some young people, who were not otherwise in more control of themselves yet.

You know my mother raised me on formula.

Craig you are an artist and you have a two pronged avatar. What does that tell young fans who follow you? No smoking etc.

Not having a go just interested in your answer? Bands have to compete, have to have an image, have to go the extra mile to get noticed. This was why I asked everyone some time ago if band image bothered them no less. What are your thoughts?

I'm quite sure, that some of these bands have members who are truly satanists, or even just atheists.... but I am also sure, that many are putting on an act for young kids, who buy into it all, as a form of rebellion.

Craig you are an artist and you have a two pronged avatar. What does that tell young fans who follow you? No smoking etc.

Well, Chippy, I walk a thin line sometimes.

It is a valid point. But being a rebel can be a good thing sometimes. It would certainly look better if I was in front of a "No Praying" sign, and was instead down on my knees, fighting THAT directive. I'll give you that.

But I was OUTSIDE, and honestly, the sign was actually for INSIDE the building.

I just thought it looked provocative. And so I think it is funny. I do believe in sending the right messages, and doing the right things, but I also believe we can stray into LEGALISM when we take that to extremes. I hope that the testimony of my life, my music, my actions and heart towards others, speaks well enough of me, to put who I really am, in perspective for all comers.

Jesus broke rules, as did His disciples.

They broke ritualitic and ceremonial type rules, not rules regarding LOVE and KINDNESS and SACRIFICE for others, which in the end, are the ONLY RULES that really matter.

I hope with that picture, that I attract a few REBELS into some interest of me, and once drawn in, my hope, is that my heart then testifies to the LOVING GOD that I serve, and sacrifice for, and cling to.

I also draw contempt from religionists and traditionalists too however, and that is not really a problem for me. It keeps me on my toes, and allows hopefully, for the posibility that they receive something useful from me... a new way of looking at things.... a re-examination of their own hearts and motives perhaps.

But in all honesty, I see VERY LITTLE danger in this playful picture doing harm, or working against the greater good, the larger picture. The ones who would judge me for it, are mostly going to be legalists anyway, who will accuse me of a "bad testimony", when they miss altogether, that they are merely setting up a system where "absolutist rule following" equals "holiness" or "godliness", and this could not be further from the truth.

Many a religionist, has missed the mark, making superficial judgements of others, while not caring enough about their fellow man, to search those people's hearts and souls instead!

It is the VERY REASON that Jesus' followers were simple fishermen and even others considered reprorobates by the elitists of religious society, who dress well, pride themselves on their memorization of scripture, are highly praised and respected by their fellow religionists, etc... When it should have been the religious leaders and high priests of Jesus day, which followed Him, and became Apostles.

But they judged Him instead, and judged Him based on superficial markers.

In the end, they missed serving their own Messiah, who lived among them, and stood and taught in THEIR VERY PRESENCE!

And all the while, it ended up being THE JUDGED who became His followers... who actually listened to, and UNDERSTOOD the message Jesus brought.

It's always been this way.

It is this way TODAY, which is why many churches cling to rules of superficiality, while ignoring the SACRED RULES of love, and of the heart! The very rules, which God ACTUALLY DOES care about most, because they are the most crucial. One set of rules, makes for a good "appearance", while the truer set of rules, makes for "Building the Kingdom of God on Earth!"

Which do you think is closest to God's heart?

Thanks for replying Craig.
Actually I think you raise a fair good few points that have also been a bug bare with many parents over the years too. Many horror films in the 80's showed kids playing records backwards to reveal satanic verses didn't they and parents were up in arms about them too.

Didn't one band actually do that?

Anyway does it stop there? I mean what about films, guns, violence on them and such? Most have musical scores that can be bought, these too are thrown in the pile and away from parental censorship. (Not that there is any in our modern America anyway). Kids can basically see what they want and they are clever too, we teach them.

So where is that fine line between sporting an image that you obviously need to succeed and that which quite obviously is something else. I do have to agree with you Craig on this. There are people and bands out there who do in fact seem ti support the occult because they know it is popular with younger people and mystics.

Do kids follow a trend?

You always talk about freewill Craig. If you would just admit that we should have freewill to do ANYTHING as long as it doesn't hurt anyone else your words would have more validity. But you only want people to exercise their freewill if it meets with your approval. You want to smoke even though you believe God made you in his image? Fine. I want to write a song questioning God's existence? Fine too. But even though we have freewill we are not totally free since we must abide by the laws of man.

Already been done
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gArgTD2PQB0

I want to write a song questioning God's existence? Fine too. But even though we have freewill we are not totally free since we must abide by the laws of man.

As I recall, Craig, Jesus told us that we should follow man's law. "Render unto Caesar," & all that, supposedly has this meaning, as well. Follow god's law 1st, & man's law 2nd, is the gist of it, is it not?

Yet, here you are, rebel that you are, apparently disobeying not only the law of the land, but disrespecting the temple that is your body, as well, yet you hope that the memory of your actions will be put into some sort of perspective?

Who's perspective, Craig? Yours?

All we & future ppl will have to go by is what you present to us, & what you are presenting is a mixed message, as far as I can tell.

Jesus did not lure law-breakers into the fold by breaking laws designed to protect the ppl, Craig, nor by defiling his holiest of temples, his very flesh. He broke laws that held the ppl down. You cannot equate the two, unless he was doing some sort of drug that went against the gov't's ruling on such things.

I, as a non-christian smoker, have a weak enough argument against the laws, but you? You have no legs, man!

This issue may seem superficial to you, but to millions of ppl, it is far from that. You are merely showing them disrespect with this picture, you rebel, you!

Are you really gonna compare this action to any of Christ's?

No. This is, pure & simple, as bad as much of what you fight against. You are promoting unhealthy behavior. You are condoning the breaking of the law, whether or not you actually broke it, yourself. In fact, I'd say that this is even worse than if you had broken a law, Craig! You were not risking the repercussions of such behavior, yet you seem to be encouraging others to do so. Talk about your hypocracy!!!!!

I'm losing a lot of respect for you over this one, Craig, the more I think about it. But carry on in your own way. Don't let me or anyone else sway you on this. I'll try not to be judgemental about it, & won't mention it again..

You always talk about freewill Craig. If you would just admit that we should have freewill to do ANYTHING as long as it doesn't hurt anyone else your words would have more validity.

We have free will period. Whether used for good or harm. Whether we hurt others or ourselves. The "ability" to do something however, does not equate to a "justification" morally, of doing so. I can drive my car into a crowded bus stop on purpose, killing and maiming people, but we can agree, this is not a "good" thing to do. I can drive my car into a telephone pole on purpose as well, killing only myself... but again, this wouldn't be a "good" thing to do.

I like the Wiccan creed "Do no harm" (which is actually the physician's creed) but sometimes we DO harm others, even when we think we are only harming ourselves. We are so interconnected, it is difficult, if not impossible, to commit acts, even in solitude, which do not affect others in some way.

If you are referring to more recreational activities, like alcohol, drugs or sex... I don't think God concerns Himself primarily with our recreational pursuits. I don't think drinking alcohol is some great sin. The sinful side of it comes out more, when we over-do something. Jesus drank alcohol. Paul recommended Timothy have a little wine on occassion for his stomach pains. The Bible's record on this is QUITE CLEAR, though some ministers would like to play with the wording, and suggest that Jesus only drank non-alcoholic grape juice. But this is not factual. The religious leaders would not have judged Jesus for drinking non-alcoholic grape juice! They judged Him for "eating and drinking" which is a phrase that basically means... "Partying"

Yes, Jesus partied!

I am quite sure He didn't over-indulge, but HE DID enjoy, what to others was considered "Partying". Why? Because we are meant to find ENJOYMENT in life, and FUN! Plus... Jesus enjoyed.... PEOPLE! The image we are used to growing up with, where Jesus is always a somber and serious looking person 24/7 is simply not accurate! He practiced BALANCE in life. He was VERY serious, when giving sermons, but he also had HUMOR in his sermons, and I KNOW that He enjoyed laughing at times. If life were nothing but one huge DRAMATIC theatrical endeavor, who could endure it? We KNOW that laughing is healthy, yet people cannot envision Jesus making jokes.... YET HE DID! We KNOW that drinking alcohol in moderation, is healthy and relaxing, yet people have a hard time seeing Jesus partake in a glass of wine... YET HE DID!

Some would say that we should not drink alcohol EVER, because it can be a stumbling block to us. But this is the VERY REASON that fundamental Muslims cover women from HEAD TO TOE with burkas!




It is done so their beauty won't become a STUMBLING BLOCK for the desires of men. Or a stumbling block to the vanity of women.

But is this the right method?

Is it really successful?

Of course not.

Women are beautiful. God made them so. We don't need to cover God's artistry because "WE" are weak. The solution is to CONTROL OUR OWN DESIRES, until the proper place and time. The solution is to INCREASE our faithfulness and discipline, not to DECREASE the natural beauty God created in women.

You want my opinion...

God does not want to strike us down, for alcohol consumtion, or even recreational drugs use, or sexual activity.

But that said...

What we are really doing, when we over-indulge in ANYTHING, is seeking a replacement for what we really desire, what we really need... LOVE!

When you experience the love of God, you don't find the same need, to over-indulge, to cross lines, to go overboard in ANYTHING.

God is longsuffering.

He understands us better than we understand ourselves.

When the ADULTEROUS woman was brought before Jesus to judge, He did not sentence her to death by stoning, which the law prescribed. He told the angry crowd... "He who is without sin, case the first stone!"

One by one, they dispersed. They ALL knew they had sin in their lives. They knew that SECRETLY, they had their own sins in their lives, whether worthy of stoning or not.

Jesus took pity on this woman.

He knew, that SHE KNEW, the penalty of her actions was DEATH! Why then did she do it? Was lust alone that powerful a motivator? Maybe her husband beat her, and made her feel worthless? Maybe the attention cast on her by a man outside her marriage, to her... felt good for a change? Maybe to her... it felt like love? Like someone was interested in her, that someone felt she had value, if only for using her to fulfill sexual desire.

This would have made Jesus "SAD" and not "ANGRY" like the crowd was. Because Jesus KNEW, that what she really lacked was the LOVE OF GOD in her life. She lacked that love so desperately, that she risked a violent death at the hands of her own community, to feel.... SOMETHING!

But Jesus did not JUSTIFY her sin.

He told her... "Go and sin no more."

But the punishment did not fit the crime. Had she known and felt, the love of God, she would have had no feeling of a need to risk death, for such physical and TEMPORARY pleasure.

His hope was, that in receiving forgiveness, her heart would be moved, to repent HERSELF and to seek God's love HERSELF!

That she would seek after the remedy for what really ailed her.

The absence of a relationship with God. The lacking of God's love in her life.

But you only want people to exercise their freewill if it meets with your approval. You want to smoke even though you believe God made you in his image? Fine. I want to write a song questioning God's existence? Fine too.

First of all, the song in question was not "questioning" God's existence, it was DECLARING that God is not worth beliving in. It was DECLARING that God was responsible for OUR DECISIONS. It was DECLARING that God was NOT a God of love, but a tyrant worth MOCKING and JUDGING in his little song.

I think there is a HUGE difference between these two.

One merely raises "questions" in the listener's minds, while the other may actually act as an ANTHEM for remaning out of relationship with God.

Jesus didn't judge the religious leaders of His day for "questioning" things. He judged them for BELIEVING THEY ALREADY KNEW God's heart, while they were in fact FAR AWAY from God's heart, and then then blindly, led others AWAY FROM GOD'S LOVE as well!

Jesus had little patience, for religious leaders who led people further away from God, with all their self-righteous security in doing so.

But even though we have freewill we are not totally free since we must abide by the laws of man.

We "MUST"?

There is no "must".

You have free will to disobey man's laws, AND free will to disobey God's laws. But... know what you are doing, because there are potentially grave penalties for BOTH!

Civil disobedience is no sin, when the cause is just.

And even the laws of God, are at times flexible. As scripture plainly states... The law was made for man.... not man being made for the law. The law is there to SERVE US! Not us being made, to serve the law.

For example, laws prohibitting man from eating food sacrificed to idols, were put in place for a purpose. A higher spiritual being, with firmer understanding of what sin really is, however, would have no need for such a law. Because they would understand that it is not what goes into the mouth, that creates sin... but what comes OUT of the mouth.

If you are outside of a close relationship with God, you should probably go to church EVERY Sunday, without fail. If you are in close relationship to God, you are not going to suddenly become weak, because you missed a few Sundays, or began worshipping with others in their home, rather than in brick and mortar buildings.

Some of God's "laws" are based upon our own spiritual fortitude, or the lack thereof.

As I recall, Craig, Jesus told us that we should follow man's law. "Render unto Caesar," & all that

I'm not breaking any of "man's laws" that I am aware of.

Jesus did not lure law-breakers into the fold by breaking laws designed to protect the ppl, Craig, nor by defiling his holiest of temples, his very flesh. He broke laws that held the ppl down. You cannot equate the two, unless he was doing some sort of drug that went against the gov't's ruling on such things.

I'm not trying to put myself on par with Jesus Phil. Particularly not my smoking cigarettes. I am merely stating that these are certainly lesser offenses, and not worthy of judging the fullness of my heart over. Smoking cigarettes is not, to me, the huge spiritual or even physical ordeal, you make it out to be. Eating high cholesterol foods ultimately will cause me more harm, than my smoking will. Why not judge me for that instead? Craving baked potatoes smothered in butter is definitely a worse offense, and a personal pleasure that has NO GOOD side benefits, whatsoever.

And I am not proselytizing by smoking. The picture eludes to a little rebellious streak, nothing more.

I'm sorry you take such offense at it.

I hardly think it merits sleepless nights for you though.

No. This is, pure & simple, as bad as much of what you fight against.

Not hardly Phil. It is merely the way you are choosing to frame it. You are creating meaning that doesn't exist in reality.

You are promoting unhealthy behavior.

Someone personally engaged in an activity, does not in itself promote, nor speak against any such activity. You could say that drug addicted celebrities are PROMOTING the use of hard drugs, when in fact, the very image of their addiction, may instead WARD MANY AWAY from such drug use. Sometimes the results of a bad habit, itself, is a powerful message to others NOT to get involved with them.

You just want to find judgement in SOMETHING that you can cling to, because you see me as a "self righteous prick" (and you have actually used that exact phrase before, I believe)

But what you don't understand somehow, is that, my sharing of the truths that I have personally come to understand, does not imply I am a perfect person, by any stretch of the imagination. I try to follow what I believe in, but I fall short, like anyone else does. But my falling short here and there, does not imply that I have nothing to teach others. It may very well be, that something I taught someone, could be embraced by them, and consequently FOLLOWED even better than I try to follow it. They would then be a BETTER EXAMPLE of such a teaching, than I am myself. That doesn't mean that I should then STOP trying to teach or share what I have learned. It just means that there are now MORE PEOPLE teaching these things to others.

That's a good thing.

Not something to find contempt for.

If we could ONLY learn things from perfect individuals, we would all be a bunch of absolutely ignorant creatures, with no hope whatsoever, of remedying the situation, since there are currently NO PERFECT PEOPLE, walking the Earth to teach us!

I'm losing a lot of respect for you over this one, Craig, the more I think about it.

I'm sorry to hear that.

But you are really placing WAY TOO MUCH importance on my smoking, and especially, on that picture.

Let's imagine another scenario.... What if I didn't smoke, and never broke any rules, and when someone asked me... "How is it that you profess to be a Christian, and yet your avatar shows you smoking a cigarette in front of a no-smoking sign?"

And what if the answer were then...

"Because that is how I USED to be, before God got a hold of my heart. And I put that pic up, so that it reminds me of how powerful God is, to change someone so set in their ways, into someone NEW! And now, it is a powerful TESTIMONY for others, of the power of God!"

Would you have the same opinion of the picture in that scenario? In that scenario, couldn't it be, that something which superficially "appeared" to be a force for harm, instead, was THAT MUCH MORE, a force for good?

Granted, that is not an accurate assessment of current reality, since I do in fact currently smoke. But if you concede that the SAME PICTURE could have legitimate power, either for good or for ill, then you would have to concede, that you are merely making a superficial judgement of a single snapshot in time. The same picture could have MULTIPLE meanings, depending on the facts.

Therefore, I don't think YOUR superficial judgement of something as trivial, in the big picture, as whether I smoke or not, is worthy of the importance that YOU personally place upon it.

Nevertheless,

If I thought it could bring YOU into a deeper relationship with God, I would stop smoking this very instant.

Is there any chance of that?

If not, I will stop when I am ready to stop. I know that prolonged smoking is harmful to one's health, and I intend to stop smoking altogether sometime soon. I stopped previously, and didn't smoke for 7 years, before taking it back up again. If my wife would agree to stop WITH ME, that of course, always makes it easier, for BOTH of us to maintain a smoke-free life, hopefully permanently.

"Let's imagine another scenario.... What if I didn't smoke, and never broke any rules, and when someone asked me... "How is it that you profess to be a Christian, and yet your avatar shows you smoking a cigarette in front of a no-smoking sign?"

And what if the answer were then...

"Because that is how I USED to be, before God got a hold of my heart. And I put that pic up, so that it reminds me of how powerful God is, to change someone so set in their ways, into someone NEW! And now, it is a powerful TESTIMONY for others, of the power of God!"

The problem with all of these scenarios & excuses is that you can only see so much in a picture, Craig. This is your advertisement of who & what you are. No one knows all the stories behind the pic.






















But please, put all of that aside, & accept my apology, Craig. I was fooling with you & I took it WAY too far. I was pretending to be you, & you responded as you usually do, with all too much seriousness. I was pickin' on ya.

Can't you just laugh something off, man? If you'd done that to me, I'd have pointed my finger atcha & giggled like a schoolgirl!

I just wanted to argue & judge like I see you doing for awhile. Ya know what? It's kinda fun!



I could argue this stuff all day, but I can't take it seriously for long.

I was pretending to be you, & you responded as you usually do, with all too much seriousness.

I "AM" too serious too often.

It's a fault from my life's experiences, and from my true concern for people's hearts and concern over the state of world affairs, as well as concern over the times I believe we are living in.

I should lighten up more often.

Oops...

Hell, even THIS public disclosure came across too seriously, didn't it?!!

I'm hopeless!!!!!