General Music Chat

I could be wrong, but I really don't think i am. A lot of you that are downing these show, may not say it, but would love to be up there getting a award for their music. We all know that there a lot of big names out there that really are not all that good, but they knew how to sell themselves, and they must not be that bad of a entertainer to go with it. I never thought Kiss was all that good, but man they put on a hell of a show. Look at all the great jazz artist that never made the money that some of these rappers, or rockers made, its not because they are not good, its more that they don't appeal to the masses. So in closing i will say don't hate. yime for me to get off my soap box. hahehahahahaha

Agreed.
And I will say it. It would be awesome to get an award for music.

Appeal equals money and awards, not necessarily talent.

I doesnt matter if you are rich or poor at all.
It does however matter where you live.
You need to be where the A & R saturation is. The times are changing but its still a huge leg up if youre in the right neighborhood.

I agree with this, it all boils down to location, location, and who you know or who knows of you and likes what they see and, or hear. When I was a kid I hated that the Jackson 5 were the big stars, and i was doing block parties, but the right people saw something in them, and help make them into who they became, that's not to say they were not good, I just felt that I was just as good. If you have that look that people want to see, and the sound that's hot today, and the right people see, and hear you, then anyone of us could be the next big thing. What is funny the rest of us who didn't get that break will be sitting here bad mouthing you. haheaheaheahaha That's one of those things that make you "Hummm"

My ill words will always be based in professional criticism, even if they result in personal criticism of these people. Widespread commercial success driven by a corporate franchise grows to a point that it's running on the greed of the performer or band, the management backing them at the label as well as the arrogance of the performer. It takes an arrogant narcissist to believe they deserve priority and financial stability over millions of others who could easily replace them if given the opportunity. At some point you have to ask, why are they giving nothing back.

And what is their response?
I donate to charities, help the less fortunate blah blah blah.
The reality is, that's a luxury and you're giving to these people from what has been withheld from others and you played a crucial role in the situation. You have to be willing to confront these people because while they have the ability, it doesn't give them the right and shame on people like Ronald Reagan, George Bush and Bill Clinton for not putting restrictions and penalties on these monopolies when an effective solution was still a possibility because today, it is not.
It's what has the consumer insisting that theft of music through downloading is justified and appropriate.

While I don't agree with the action, these companies have certainly provoked it and unfortunately, have found their money in it through other means anyway.

You can only hope that those in these positions stop being so concerned about making the biggest profit possible each year and focus on expanding investments which in the future, will prove to be far more beneficial. Ultimately though, it takes someone in the spotlight to say hey, take a look over here, take a look over there. I've had my time, I'm doing well and there will always be more of me to come. They can't rely on these billion dollar corporations that market them as a product to build a franchise out of someone else. They have to take some initiative which means passing on a proposal and money offer while investing their own time and money to provide opportunity for those that were left standing in the rain while all precedence went to them.
The worst part about this scenario is, it actually happens and how do they go about doing it?

The exact same way as the major record labels, production studios and talent agencies. The best opportunity for the individual in the wrong location is nonsense like American Idol. That's simply an embarrassment to what should be a career industry and isn't. The ultimate reality is, it wouldn't take much to make the free information musicians, singers and other performers need to pursue their career goal on a professional and more realistic level available and cost free on both ends.

One of the biggest things that comes to mind is of course radio.
I have a list of every radio station in America which includes the stations genre roster and program director. These lists are also categorized so you can focus on commercial free and college radio which hold the most potential for a newcomer.
Still, just look at these kids that at 15 years old are on every radio station and a dozen major television networks with out a single person demanding them. The REAL musicians and performers get their through public demand, not the manipulation of over exposure and advertisement propaganda.

The response is always this.
The biggest investment goes where the largest demand is but that's a very misleading answer. People like to go to the events that will have the largest crowds, fanciest locations, most performers and the most popular songs on radio and television. This isn't controlled by the consumer as the companies insist, it's merely ENDORSED by the consumer do to the exposure of the events and the performers showcased at them. The more it's in your face, the less you can avoid it. The more they offer and promise, the more people that are going to show. Unless you can get a competitive level of exposure, you can't compete.
So we're to blame ourselves for not getting the corporate support or having 10 million dollars to spend every year on promoting ourselves?

The low lifes like Craig want to defend crap like The Grammies, the assholes they reward and the position of insignificance they abuse others into fulfilling. Getting out locally and showcasing yourself just establishes that you can perform, that their is public demand and how reliable your performance is. In the end, nothing will get you exposure and make you available to the public other than large investments of $$$.

My ill words will always be based in professional criticism, even if they result in personal criticism of these people. Widespread commercial success driven by a corporate franchise grows to a point that it's running on the greed of the performer or band, the management backing them at the label as well as the arrogance of the performer. It takes an arrogant narcissist to believe they deserve priority and financial stability over millions of others who could easily replace them if given the opportunity. At some point you have to ask, why are they giving nothing back.

And what is their response?
I donate to charities, help the less fortunate blah blah blah.
The reality is, that's a luxury and you're giving to these people from what has been withheld from others and you played a crucial role in the situation. You have to be willing to confront these people because while they have the ability, it doesn't give them the right and shame on people like Ronald Reagan, George Bush and Bill Clinton for not putting restrictions and penalties on these monopolies when an effective solution was still a possibility because today, it is not.
It's what has the consumer insisting that theft of music through downloading is justified and appropriate.

While I don't agree with the action, these companies have certainly provoked it and unfortunately, have found their money in it through other means anyway.

You can only hope that those in these positions stop being so concerned about making the biggest profit possible each year and focus on expanding investments which in the future, will prove to be far more beneficial. Ultimately though, it takes someone in the spotlight to say hey, take a look over here, take a look over there. I've had my time, I'm doing well and there will always be more of me to come. They can't rely on these billion dollar corporations that market them as a product to build a franchise out of someone else. They have to take some initiative which means passing on a proposal and money offer while investing their own time and money to provide opportunity for those that were left standing in the rain while all precedence went to them.
The worst part about this scenario is, it actually happens and how do they go about doing it?

The exact same way as the major record labels, production studios and talent agencies. The best opportunity for the individual in the wrong location is nonsense like American Idol. That's simply an embarrassment to what should be a career industry and isn't. The ultimate reality is, it wouldn't take much to make the free information musicians, singers and other performers need to pursue their career goal on a professional and more realistic level available and cost free on both ends.

One of the biggest things that comes to mind is of course radio.
I have a list of every radio station in America which includes the stations genre roster and program director. These lists are also categorized so you can focus on commercial free and college radio which hold the most potential for a newcomer.
Still, just look at these kids that at 15 years old are on every radio station and a dozen major television networks with out a single person demanding them. The REAL musicians and performers get their through public demand, not the manipulation of over exposure and advertisement propaganda.

Wow thats deep, and their still playin Polka music at the VFW and American Legion.

Jonny, there is no conspiracy in the music industry against you!

No one holds you back but YOU.

And I am not a cheerleader for manipulative practices by the major labels. Far from it. But REALITY is what it is. You can either work within their system, or make your own success through creative and alternative means.

You are a newcomer here, so you haven't been around when I started posts about how many artists are DITCHING the major labels, because they just don't need them any more. When you produce and market and CONTROL your own product, then you may sell less units, but you will make FAR MORE money. I shared examples of this with Bare Naked Ladies, Radiohead, Madonna and several others.

I have also explained to others here, how initial contracts with big labels work. That they are designed to recoup ALL the label's expenses FIRST, and that a very successful first album, can actually put that artist in DEBT, yes DEBT, to the record label. Which is why you have to be a solid enough act, to justify a second or third album, which is where you may be able to free yourself and write your own ticket after that.

Still, it could be fun traveling the world, acting the part of a big rock star, and for sure, you will get the best producers and engineers money can buy. They don't spend $150,000 dollars on an album for nothing.

But in this new market, it really is UNECESSARY, particularly if you are young, and a good self promoter, with a good work ethic.

But signing with a label is going to SCREW YOU for a good 3 to 5 years, so why you are bitching and moaning about OTHERS getting enslaved by the labels is beyond me.

You don't know SH*T about the music industry.

You have fantastic paranoid delusions, and have tried to wrap it all up in the same wrapping paper. It is just not that simple. There are MANY paths in the music industry these days. Things are not getting WORSE, they are getting BETTER. Because the labels do not hold anywhere near the power they once did. They are on LIFE SUPPORT as we speak, surviving by altering their business model, into what is called "360 Deals" and licensing music to video games like "Rock Band" and "Guitar Hero" and unbelievably enough.... cell phone RINGTONES.

You claimed earlier, something like, that things have gotten worse with labels controlling the public tastes since the 90's, and unless I misunderstood you (maybe you were just talking about the music itself) that is a ridiculous assertion. The labels had FAR MORE control of EVERYTHING in the 50's and 60's than they do now! Go look up "Payola" for example, to see how manipulative they were. They PAID radio stations to play the songs they wanted on air... they manipulated Cashbox rankings, etc... etc...

You claim it is difficult to get on the radio, but it is not as difficult as you think. Especially college stations. But even major stations in certain markets devote a certain amount of air time to LOCAL recording artists. But alot of people don't even listen to radio any longer. They have satellite radio, make their own CD's for the car, and many newer vehicles come with MP3 inputs STANDARD.

The LISTENERS are now in charge of their musical preferences, which NEGATES yet another false assertion you have made.

You also claimed that there are only 2 levels of success in music, either being a major recording artist, or being someone who makes "a little" money at music, but cannot live off of it.

NOTHING could be further from the truth.

There are MANY bands, who rise to the level of regional acts, and make a comfortable living doing so. They gig all year long, they play huge festivals, they buy their own buses with their revenues and develop circuits to play YEAR ROUND. I know bands like this, who have been VERY successful after a few years of paying their dues and working hard to get where they now are.

There is a band called the Zak Brown Band, who ALWAYS beat my old band in the MySpace music rankings, but only by a few slots. We would usually be in the top 10 with them, and often number 3 and even number 2 at times. But my band screwed me, and lost me, while their band continued on. The Zak Brown band stayed together, and they now have a song played nationally and I saw them awhile back on one of the Late Night Shows. Can't remember now if it was Letterman or Leno or another one. But they are well on their way, and NOT because of screwing anyone, or having any connections... just decent original music, and HARD WORK and DEDICATION.

All this shows me, that you have NO REAL EXPERIENCE in playing music regularly and living on the road, or even KNOWING anyone in the music industry that could set you straight on these things.

You have the same disease that most 20 somethings have... "Iknowitall-ITIS" but you WILL grow up eventually, and like all the 30 and 40 year olds here, you will find that you DON'T KNOW as much as you thought you did, and you will revise your opinions in your 30's and yet again in your 40's. This will come simply from gaining EXPERIENCE in life.

As to the labels desire to control things... they invest, on average, $150,000 per album for a new artist, who is untested. And as much as 90% of those acts will fail, and not be embraced by the public. The labels know this, and accept it as the price of finding the needle in the haystack, which WILL pay off for them. They don't want to throw their money away, so they follow a cookie-cutter formula that has worked for them, and that their own history tells them is what will have the best chance of selling.

This is not limited to record companies.

The NFL draft is EXACTLY the same. They measure by millimeters the width of a player's biceps and calves, and the length of their instep, just about everything you can imagine, because their research tells them, that the best wide receivers, or quarterbacks or any other position.... have a certain height, a certain finger length, etc... And if the prospect is not with the parameters of those measurements, more often than not, they will be REJECTED by the pros. Alot of famous and excellent players in the past would have NEVER made it into the NFL under the more recent guidelines they follow, but this means nothing to those running the ball clubs, because there is NO sure way of knowing who will make a great pro ball player and who won't. This point is easily proven, by simply recognizing that most of the GREATEST college players, DO NOT end up being the greatest PRO BALL PLAYERS! But the guidelines the NFL owners use, is the BEST guideline they have to go on, to make their best determination, of who will succeed and who won't. At the end of the day, this all results in the bottom line, which is... BRINGING CASH into the NFL, which the owners share. Their sport is on TOP, in terms of popularity and earnings, and they want to KEEP IT THAT WAY!

Same with record labels.

Same with ANY business.

In Nashville, you generally CANNOT record with your own band. Are you even aware of that? Tim McGraw's band that travels the road with him, IS NOT the band that records his hit songs. It is UNDERSTOOD in Nashville, that only studio musicians are used for albums. They are paid for the job done, and receive NO ROYALTIES.

You can say this is bad for the music business, because supposedly BETTER musicians are not being given a chance, but you would be wrong. Studio musicians in Nashville, are among the best musicians in the world, and most of them make a good living just doing studio work. Country albums have some of the best musicians, producers and engineers you can find ANYWHERE, and lately, it is Country Music that has been the only genre of music, NOT losing money because of free file sharing, and is in fact INCREASING revenues to their respective labels.

You are speaking emotional rhetoric, while I am sharing FACTS.

You have questioned my intelligence, though my IQ is superior to yours. You have not witnessed me calling YOUR intelligence into question, because you express yourself reasonably well. It is clear to me that you have a brain... you just lack experience and knowledge. You have demeaned my talents as well, when I am, in fact, a very talented and well rounded singer, songwriter and performer. I cannot judge your singing, songwriting or performing, because I haven't witnessed them yet, so I cannot make judgements on what I haven't heard yet. You have also demeaned my CHARACTER, when I am likely, among the most honest and integrity filled persons you will ever come across.

Basically, you have taken offense at my main judgement of you, even though it is accurate... that you are a young and INEXPERIENCED person, who has much to learn in life.

Rather than make HONEST assessments of my intelligence, character and skills as a singer and musician, you instead resort to base attacks, most of which are not even true, and one that is... being overweight. But my being overweight will not turn the color blue into the color red, and it will not make your false assumptions about the music business, suddenly become reality.

John Boy

Im still curious how many gigs you have done? How many club owners have you asked for gigs? As Craig mentioned how many press kits for bands have you put together? How many songs have you recorded? I wouldnt really consider the things on your profile as songs, just some riffs thrown together for your own amusement. You talk about "Hollywood" like you are some sort of insider. Your from where Ohio, thats a long ways from LA. I think its cool that you think so highly of your skills. In fact I think if you are to be successful in any endeaver that you need some sort of ego to attain any level of success. I think of all the young guitarist that have come to my gigs over the years and wanted to sit in. Some of these cats actually were amazing and had a few licks that just blew me away, but most throw them on the table in the first song they play and then it is the same thing over and over, which gets very boring. Most of the time there would come a point with even the better ones when I would have to say you need to sit down cause you are ruining or performance. As Ive said before on here I hope that you achieve some sort of success in this business. Good Luck!

You guys throw that asshole term around so easily, in my case I know I am asshole. Ive got enough exs that will probably attest to that fact.

This thread started with Jimmy stating he was disgusted with the Grammys because of the selection. I think most of us would agree with that. But as has been said, most of us would love to be in a position to win or be nominated. I know I would and it doesnt matter whether I was playing Polka or Classical music. I think it takes some work on a performers part to get in that position whether they are privileged with family wealth or not. I dont think anyone that has won a grammy just woke up one morning and said mommy daddy I want a grammy. They had to do something for it and I would imagine that they worked way harder than any of us has or we might actually be there our selves.

The Grammys are based on sales and popularity, not how great a performer truelly is, so I agree with John Boy on this it takes huge amounts of money to get in that game.

But on the other hand, never in the history of music has it been easier to get your music out there. JB there are literally millions of bands on myspace that have songs recorded that sound way better than your little 20 minute piece of music. Im sure youve browsed that a few times. Its no skin of my back but someone with time could probably find your licks and riffs in a song on there already. If you want to be successful in music or any business these days you have to be different in some way to break thru to an audience. I hope you figure it out and I hope that you dont blow your chance when it comes your way by slamming people that have been there and done that, even if you think they play boring music.

Really you and Craig both have spent huge amounts of time and emotion on here going at each other that could have been better spent to further your careers. Its entertaining to read but in the end what is the point?

I think Im done with this subject and I hope both of you become gazillionaires and win a room full of Grammys.

John Boy

Im still curious how many gigs you have done? How many club owners have you asked for gigs? As Craig mentioned how many press kits for bands have you put together? How many songs have you recorded? I wouldnt really consider the things on your profile as songs, just some riffs thrown together for your own amusement. You talk about "Hollywood" like you are some sort of insider. Your from where Ohio, thats a long ways from LA. I think its cool that you think so highly of your skills. In fact I think if you are to be successful in any endeaver that you need some sort of ego to attain any level of success. I think of all the young guitarist that have come to my gigs over the years and wanted to sit in. Some of these cats actually were amazing and had a few licks that just blew me away, but most throw them on the table in the first song they play and then it is the same thing over and over, which gets very boring. Most of the time there would come a point with even the better ones when I would have to say you need to sit down cause you are ruining or performance. As Ive said before on here I hope that you achieve some sort of success in this business. Good Luck!

You guys throw that asshole term around so easily, in my case I know I am asshole. Ive got enough exs that will probably attest to that fact.

This thread started with Jimmy stating he was disgusted with the Grammys because of the selection. I think most of us would agree with that. But as has been said, most of us would love to be in a position to win or be nominated. I know I would and it doesnt matter whether I was playing Polka or Classical music. I think it takes some work on a performers part to get in that position whether they are privileged with family wealth or not. I dont think anyone that has won a grammy just woke up one morning and said mommy daddy I want a grammy. They had to do something for it and I would imagine that they worked way harder than any of us has or we might actually be there our selves.

The Grammys are based on sales and popularity, not how great a performer truelly is, so I agree with John Boy on this it takes huge amounts of money to get in that game.

But on the other hand, never in the history of music has it been easier to get your music out there. JB there are literally millions of bands on myspace that have songs recorded that sound way better than your little 20 minute piece of music. Im sure youve browsed that a few times. Its no skin of my back but someone with time could probably find your licks and riffs in a song on there already. If you want to be successful in music or any business these days you have to be different in some way to break thru to an audience. I hope you figure it out and I hope that you dont blow your chance when it comes your way by slamming people that have been there and done that, even if you think they play boring music.

Really you and Craig both have spent huge amounts of time and emotion on here going at each other that could have been better spent to further your careers. Its entertaining to read but in the end what is the point?

I think Im done with this subject and I hope both of you become gazillionaires and win a room full of Grammys.

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