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#19497 by godspunk89
Tue Jan 15, 2008 3:44 pm
Ok, here's the deal, I've had this system for about a little over a year now, and I've used it a couple of times for playin at church and everything but I'm not gettin the sound I want out of it. It's a kustom system it's got two speakers, two monitors and a box mixer. No matter what I do I cannot figure out how to get it as loud as I need it for our type of music without the feedback and I have all the lows meds and highs almost all the way down in order to get it as loud as I have it right now and it still doesn't match what I need. I've tried to mic my amps as well for me and my other guitar player to try and get the speakers used to more sound and we still can't be as loud as we want because we can't hear it when our singer is singing. How do i fix this problem, what do I do?

#19514 by RhythmMan
Tue Jan 15, 2008 6:17 pm
Don't know if you're using acoustic or electric guitars.
If Acoustic, get the rubber plugs that fit in the sound hole to cut back on your feedback.
Also, you can try angling your speakers towards the ceiling a little, instead of straight forward.
#19543 by fisherman bob
Wed Jan 16, 2008 1:01 am
The acoustics of the room you're in might be amplifying the trebles and highs too much. You may have to hang carpeting on the walls or put carpet over a hard floor or put acoustic ceiling tiles in. If you have too many hard surfaces the sound might bounce off everything and cause feedback. Run a pink noise generator through your PA and all the amps and get a hand held spectrum analyzer. If the mids and highs are too high and you have an equalizer on the PA and/or amps you need to cut back on those frequncies that are too high. Also never have any portion of the cones of the speakers aimed at any of the microphones. Your main speakers should be pointed AWAY from all the mikes and any monitors should be IN FRONT of the mikes pointing toward you. Also you mentioned miking the amps. Never point a mike directly into the speaker of an amp. I've known this to cause feedback and damage the mikes occasionally. If you have any neon lights, and sometimes even fluorescent lights on they need to be turned off. Neon lights can especially cause feedback. Or it maybe that you simply have to turn everything down to be able to hear the vocals. The wattage of your system may not be powerful enough to accomodate the volume you want without feedback. You may have to sacrifice some of the tone you desire to be able to hear the vocals without feedback. You need to experiment sometimes. Sometimes even the location of the amps in your room need to be completely changed to get everything to work properly. Good luck...

#19564 by RhythmMan
Wed Jan 16, 2008 4:31 am
Hey, Bob.
Nice to see a face to associate with the name.
:)
Hey, you said, " . . .You may have to hang carpeting on the walls or put carpet over a hard floor or put in acoustic ceiling tiles . . ."
But, seeing as he said he's playing in a church, don't you think they might object to his putting up acoustic ceiling tiles?
:)
#19570 by fisherman bob
Wed Jan 16, 2008 6:29 am
Maybe if they move the rehearsal to a better room for acoustics they would have better luck. Churches tend to have a lot of hard surfaces and there can be lots of reverberation. By the way I've got some music uploaded, check out my profile page. Yeah, that's me in the studio where I belong (Not in my basement). See you later...

#19589 by RhythmMan
Wed Jan 16, 2008 4:28 pm
Bob, I don't want to hijack this thread, so I commented on your music on the other thread.
Yeah studios are much better than a basement. And safer, too.
.
I'll never forget the day when I was playing barefoot on a cement basement floor. I was using a non-polarized amp, and one of my guitar strings touched a water pipe . . .
.
There are 2 kinds of people reading this, now. Those who are already laughing, and those who are still waiting for the punch line . . .

#19596 by godspunk89
Wed Jan 16, 2008 7:33 pm
we mostly do christian rock which explains the desire to b as loud as possible lol but thank u 4 ur response.. what is a good wattage 4 a system do u think that would b loud enough to get wat im lookin 4

#19606 by jw123
Wed Jan 16, 2008 10:14 pm
I would flatten the eq and lower the gain a little, might give you more headroom. I know that sounds dumb but a lot of groups I see just kill their eq in the quest for volume.

If you have a loud bass player and your playin real dirty sounding guitars, lower the bass players amp.

Any system is going to have some limits, I always like to find it and back off a hair.

Sorry if this doesnt help.

#19608 by jw123
Wed Jan 16, 2008 10:22 pm
I reread your first post. In church situations, even heavier bands should concentrate on gettting the vocals out front and on top of everything else. That is your limit, feeding guitars in the mix is only going to cover the vocals. Get your vocals sounding good in your monitors and adjust your amp volumes to complement the singer. Then bring your vocals up in the mains, I normally feed a kick drum mic, snare, and maybe a single overhead in the mains. Until you get a bigger system match your amp volumes to your singers overall volume. I find it annoying to see groups that just cover up their vocalist cause they have to get the volume up on their amps.

"Hey is the singer singing or just moving his lips"

Good Luck
#19623 by fisherman bob
Thu Jan 17, 2008 1:06 am
is not being able to understand the words. Why even bother having a vocalist if he or she can't be understood? Flatting the EQ is what you should do when you first set up or fire up your amps. It gives you a great reference point. If you have a really good EQ you can see which frequencies are causing you problems. At the point your EQ is flat you can then mold your sound by turning down various frequencies (NOT UP) to where the vocals sound good. Then you can gradually turn everything up just short of feedback. Using this technique and experimenting with it you'll get quicker and be able to adjust your sound better as time goes by. After doing this for the last 25 years I can almost tell what's going to happen with our sound just by looking at the room we're setting up in. It really would not be a bad idea to visit a pro studio in your area or find a pro sound man to help you. Even if you have to pay somebody for an hour or two it will be money well spent. I used to have a pink noise generator that I ran through the PA and a hand held spectrum analyzer. I'd walk around the room I was in. No room is accoustically perfect. I found that in some rooms certain areas would amplify the highs more than other areas of the room. It can get complicated but a good EQ is worth the money, allows you more control over your sound. Anyway, good luck...

#19666 by godspunk89
Thu Jan 17, 2008 3:49 pm
ok, i know the problem.. I went to holze's yesterday to get some more information about it and i had no idea about anything with P.A. systems before hand. I have a 400 watt mixer, with two mains and two monitors so i only got 100 watts comin out each speaker, thats y im havin so much trouble gettin it loud, or as loud as we need it... I think my best bet for what we're trying to accomplish as bein chrstian rock is just gettin another system altogether, just so we can get more volume... so uh... does anyone want a cheap P.A. system? lol

#19668 by jw123
Thu Jan 17, 2008 4:11 pm
You dont say what kind of mixer you have, but you might be able to just buy a power amp and use its power for your main speakers, and use the internal amp for your monitors.
#19760 by fisherman bob
Sat Jan 19, 2008 4:26 am
Always have a separate power source to the mains and monitors. I've been using a Peavey XR684 for many years. It's a powered mixer that has two built in power sources for the mains and monitors. It also has two equalizers, one for the mains and one for the monitors. You really don't need that much power to the monitors in my opinion. You want them just loud enough to hear a little of everything, especially the vocals. That helps the singer stay on key. The mains is where you want the bulk of the power. Just make sure you set up the EQ properly and never aim the mains at the microphones. It takes a while to learn how to control everything and it sounds like you may need to upgrade your PA, but you'll learn by doing. We all started at one point or another (me over 25 years ago). Good luck....
#19870 by Sean Wilson
Sun Jan 20, 2008 9:42 pm
You most likely need a bigger PA system. How much you need will depend on the size of the church is you're playing in. You have to take into account the size of the room, the distance of listeners from the stage and so forth.

Larger rooms require more power to produce the same sound pressure levels (which means louder). Keep in mind that power is not everything either, but speaker sensitivity is probably as or more important. You want higher numbers here. I would avoid any speakers that have a sensitivity rating of lower than 96dB. Here's an example of why...

An amplifier pumping 512 watts though speakers that have a 93dB speaker sensitivity rating of 1 watt/1 meter is putting out an actual SPL (sound pressure level) of 120dB. An amplifier putting out 256 watts through speakers with a sensitivity rating of 96dB also puts out 120db actual SPL.

Keep in mind that increasing output by 3dB creates a perceived doubling in volume. That means that if I take that same 256 watt amp and pair it with speakers having a sensitivity rating of 100 db at 1watt/1 meter, I can get 124 dB out of them which is more than enough to create a perceived doubling in volume levels...and they will sound twice as loud as that 512 watt setup! (123dB would be the point of perceived doubling, i.e., 96+3 = 99dB sensitivity rating for speakers to get to 124 dB SPL at 256 watts...so you could do it with 99dB rated speakers.)

What all that means is that good speakers can produce more than twice the loudness of crappy ones depending on the situation and specs you have to play with. If your speakers have a low sensitivity rating, of 91dB, buying speakers with 98dB rating will make your perceived volume double not once, but twice!

Now, 400 watts isn't much, but is it 400 watts at 8ohms or 4ohms? If it is at 8ohms and your amp is capable of putting out more wattage at 4ohms, then you can get more volume by using speakers rated for 4ohm use. In other words, is you have been using speakers rated for 8ohms and 400 watts with a sensitivity rating of 91....and your amp will put out higher wattage at 4ohms....and you switch to 4ohm speaker cabs with a sensitivity of 101dB, you may be shocked to discover your volume levels have doubled three times.

Now, back to the likely scenario. It's a Kustom PA, and so likely you have at your disposal 200 watts per side at 4ohms already. In a situation like that, here's what you should do...

Consider your gig an unmic'd one for all intents and purposes. In other words, balance your levels unmic'd. Your drum kit is the base line...it can't go any louder. BUT...vocals must be loud enough to be heard over them. With a small PA as you have, your goal is to get balanced presentation of the entire band, not extreme volume. Use this and then estimate how much more volume you need. One way to do this is to invest in an SPL meter and then take a reading of your band at various distances from the stage. This will give you numbers to do the math. Just remember that a 3db increase represents a perceived doubling of volume.

You aren't at a rock concert, but are in church, and even though Christian rock bands are supposed to be louder than say a jazz quartet...you don't want concert volume levels making ears bleed 3 rows back.

I would set the drum kit up, center stage if possible of course. Next, have the drummer and vocalist start playing a song while micing the vocalist (forget about micing the drums for now) and pumping his volume up until he is heard over the drums at their loudest (do this to one of your rockingest songs). If the vocalist can't be heard over the drum kit, forget everything else, you need a bigger PA.

If you have no problem getting the vocalist heard above the drums, then start the same song again, and have the bass player join in. Raise his volume to get a good complimentary level with the drum kit. Raise vocal levels a bit to keep things balanced. Repeat by adding guitar one and then two. They should not be individually as loud as the bass. Keep adding vocals to keep them on top.

If you can go through this entire process with only vocals micd, and your band is not loud enough...but you aren't maxing out your PA, you can now do the following.

Put a mic on the kick drum. EQ it and increase its volume a bit to add some presence and 'kick' to the mix. This is probably all you're going to get out of your small Kustom PA. And it of course depends on what sort of amps all the band members have.

If the bass player and guitarists all have 30 watt solid state amps, it's going to be HARD just to be heard over the drums. 30 watt tube amps are a different matter and should be fine. If however you are using direct boxes or PODxt Live or some sort of floor processors straight to the mixer, you will need a larger PA system, that is all there is to it.

The only way to know with certainty what size PA rig you need is to get that SPL meter, stand in different parts of your church and take readings. This means renting a PA rig for the day to use for testing purposes. If for some reason you think you want to feel the bass guitar in your bones on the back row, then your bassist fires up his rig and you mic it and run it through the rented PA and crank the volume until it makes your bones rattle. Look at the sound meter and see what the reading is.

If it is a merciful 90dB and you're 150' from the stage in a room of 'X' sq. feet., take those numbers to a good sound technician. They should get you in the right ballpark.

Most rock bands have way too much volume on stage because they don't understand how to make best use of their equipment. This is probably the reason you get so much feedback. Your PA is underpowered so you are overcompensating with loud stage volumes...and then adding monitors and creating all kinds of interference, feedback.

You only need loud volumes if your PA is wimpy. If you have a strong PA system, you want it to create the volume between you and the audience and have the lowest volumes coming out of your amps on stage you can comfortably get away with. This leaves you room to have your monitored mix being pumped back on stage and being heard clearly without mucking up the stage with feedback and ear-bleed volumes.

There are a lot of conflicting bits of advice out there about how much amp you need for this or that. The bottom line is that it will vary from venue to venue. If you will ONLY play in your church, you are fortunate because you can build your system specifically for that. Most of the time, bands don't have that luxury.

You can basically break your direction towards good sound into two paths: (1) we will have a powerful PA and run it properly or (2) we're scraping by with what we can---which is probably more musicians situations than we'd all care to admit, lol.

If option 1 is at your disposal, fantastic! You can get by with direct boxes and 10 watt amps and mic them all to necessary volume levels.

If option 2 is at your disposal, treat your gig as an unmic'd gig! Try to balance levels among all instruments and get vocals out front, and then raise the overall level as money and equipment allows you by adding more power amps and speakers. Buy the best speakers you can! They do more for your sound than adding another 200 watts.

Perhaps if you post more information, such as the exact type and number of instruments, the size of the room you play in, the maximum and usual numbers of people in that room and such things as "we have a bass player but also a keyboardist that doubles some bass lines with synth parts" tidbits that would point out issues that might need special attention (i.e., you need a lot more power to reproduce bass satisfactorily), perhaps you will get more suggestions as to your particular situation. Mention the size (wattage ratings) of amps your band members are using, etc. as that will help.

Hope this helps some!

#20202 by Paleopete
Sun Jan 27, 2008 5:02 pm
I'll never forget the day when I was playing barefoot on a cement basement floor. I was using a non-polarized amp, and one of my guitar strings touched a water pipe . . .


LOL...I was grinning by the time I hit the barefoot on a cement floor part. Years ago I got so sick of being shocked half the time when my lips touched a mic I started using a foam windscreen on it. We'd spend 20 minutes trying to flip ground reverse switches and flip plugs over and still have problems, (very few 3 pin ground plugs on older amps) and I finally got fed up and got a windscreen...and avoided playing outside in really cloudy weather...

Now everything I have is grounded, first thing I do is replace plugs with broken ground pins, but I still use my old faithful windscreen, I don't want to know if it's going to shock me, when that bunch of electrons hits your lips it HURTS...and I don't get moustache hairs pulled out any more either :D

But to get back on topic it sounds like some 4 ohm speakers might make a big difference, you'd be surprised how much better efficiency makes too.

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