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Topics specific to the localities in America.

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#14406 by CallyG
Thu Oct 25, 2007 3:11 pm
My experience as a traveling artist has led me to believe that our country is inferior to Europe. It has now been 2 years since I was in Europe traveling with my band and it still amazes me when I try and compare our musical culture to their's. First off you should know that all of Europe's independent venues are government funded. Also, every band that plays at any public venue has to sign a release stating all of the song titles that you plan on playing for that performance, and if any of them are cover songs you are obligated to pay a percent of your earnings to the band that you are covering. I think that this is amazing, what a great system.

More than anything though, the hospitality of show promoters goes above and beyond any thing that I have ever seen here, well, at least for independent bands. The group that I was in was not on any kind of label, and we managed to tour Germany, The Netherlands, and Austria for 18 days a come home with around 1800 Euros. Not only did we get paid every show, but we were provided a place to stay, and the places we stayed had dinner and breakfast for us. If you are a promoter bringing in out of town acts and you have the means to provide food, and not just like pizza, I'm talking about cooking a meal, then you should take advantage of your resources and do this because the bands that you are working with will get the word out about you, and this small task will be so highly appreciated that bands are going to want to come to you and your town.

I feel like I'm rambling a bit now, but basically we need to start taking care of our touring bands alot better because it is hard out on the road. Food and Room and Board adds up quickly, so if you can, arrange a place for the bands you bring in a place to stay, and feed them good.



Support your fellow artist,
CallyGull
Business Degree


Just in case you don't make it to the bottom of the forum, I wanted to post my response to the last 48 responses. By the way, I am really surprised by the negative reaction to government funding for the arts. FUNDING FOR THE ARTS...THE ARTS....ARTS!!!!!


--------------------------------UPDATED POST-----------------------------------
Wow! I didn't realize that this post would start such a controversy. First off, thanks for the replies and the opinions. I just need to clarify about the gov. funding. It's not like there are government employees running the venues. Here is an example. You and your friend find this old building for sale, or lease or something, and it is in the heart of your town's art scene. Now, you nor your friend could afford it, but you know that if you had the building you could create a good atmosphere for people to come and hang out, and enjoy good music. In your current situation you have only one option, keep dreaming. In Europe, you have the ability to create a government proposal that this building could be used for an Art Venue and could attract lots of kids, and adults. Now, you have the money to start a venue and even a monthly "fund" that you could put towards generating art for your community. That doesn't sound so bad does it? You all are acting like it would be bull sh!t, and the government is going to come in and take over the venue and only let Nickleback, and f&cking Stained play there. Government funding, that would mean that more "independent" artist could get paid, and paid well when they came through your town, which creates more bands that aren't trying to get by playing the same bars every weekend and playing crappy cover songs.

And that is another thing. I thought the payment for the rights of songs is awesome. If you write a song, wouldn't you want to get paid a little something if somebody else is making money off performing your stuff? YES! And also, it's not like you have to have your whole set documented before you go on stage, sorry if I stated it that way before. Basically, either before you start or when you get done, you have to sign a paper that has a list of the songs that you played. This doesn't restrict you from jamming, or improvising, it just documents that you didn't perform a Bon Jovi song, or whoever. And it's not some Suit coming up to you saying, "Hey, are you going to be playing any covers tonight you little sh!ts." Everytime it was the dude that ran the "independent venue" who was usually wearing more black than us, and had more tattoos that the whole band put together. So you guys are obviously scared of any type of improvements in our art culture. Oh how I wish we were government funded. If we were, your band, and mine would be touring right now getting paid, and you wouldn't be stuck at your dead end job trying to figure out how to come up with money to get out on the road to do what you love. Or even worse, you have never had the opportunity to get out and tour where you don't even know this wonderful love. (by the way, it's much better than any woman could ever give you. Yep, the road don't let you down.)

Thanks to Irminsul, she is obviously one of the few on here who have seen the proper way music is supported in some places.
Last edited by CallyG on Wed Oct 31, 2007 8:35 pm, edited 1 time in total.

#14409 by RhythmMan
Thu Oct 25, 2007 4:00 pm
Sounds good.
Keep on rambling . . .
#14410 by ThirdShiftPsycho
Thu Oct 25, 2007 4:31 pm
CallyG wrote:My experience as a traveling artist has led me to believe that our country is inferior to Europe. It has now been 2 years since I was in Europe traveling with my band and it still amazes me when I try and compare our musical culture to their's. First off you should know that all of Europe's independent venues are government funded. Also, every band that plays at any public venue has to sign a release stating all of the song titles that you plan on playing for that performance, and if any of them are cover songs you are obligated to pay a percent of your earnings to the band that you are covering. I think that this is amazing, what a great system.

More than anything though, the hospitality of show promoters goes above and beyond any thing that I have ever seen here, well, at least for independent bands. The group that I was in was not on any kind of label, and we managed to tour Germany, The Netherlands, and Austria for 18 days a come home with around 1800 Euros. Not only did we get paid every show, but we were provided a place to stay, and the places we stayed had dinner and breakfast for us. If you are a promoter bringing in out of town acts and you have the means to provide food, and not just like pizza, I'm talking about cooking a meal, then you should take advantage of your resources and do this because the bands that you are working with will get the word out about you, and this small task will be so highly appreciated that bands are going to want to come to you and your town.

I feel like I'm rambling a bit now, but basically we need to start taking care of our touring bands alot better because it is hard out on the road. Food and Room and Board adds up quickly, so if you can, arrange a place for the bands you bring in a place to stay, and feed them good.



Support your fellow artist,
CallyGull
Business Degree


That sounds good... More government control! I hate the idea of a band having to struggle and gain a little bit of a soul and possibly even some real life experience to put into their music. It's almost as bad as when bands are free to improvise on stage without strictly following a pre-arranged (and approved) set list. The absolute worst is bands that throw in a couple of cover songs to round out there set or pay homage to some of their favorite bands and don't take out a percentage of the little amount they are already making to give to some major label corporate artist who charges thirty bucks a ticket.

All hail the new People's Republik of Amerika!

#14414 by Starfish Scott
Thu Oct 25, 2007 4:47 pm
(sound of uppercut to the midsection) Oooof lol

#14419 by celticpiping
Thu Oct 25, 2007 5:27 pm
Well, this may show a degree of close mindedness, or wisdom...you judge which but..
I had to read no further than "all of Europe's independent venues are government funded."
to realize I wasn't interested in reading any further.

While I love the diversity of the nations, I do not hold that the mandatory redistribution of material goods is best left in the purvue of politicians...for any reason: especially in the realm of artistic expression.

okok, I know we're moving in that direction...but....

celticpiping's soft underbelly has been exposed!

#14424 by Starfish Scott
Thu Oct 25, 2007 6:48 pm
lol @/with Celtic.

F the govt. And if Uncle Sam is reading this, he can F himself too.

My buddy just died in the desert, cause someone felt like having a war.

You really want the GOVT doing anything for or to you? Are they the people that think 900$ for a toliet is a good deal?

#14428 by ThirdShiftPsycho
Thu Oct 25, 2007 7:23 pm
Captain Scott wrote:You really want the GOVT doing anything for or to you? Are they the people that think 900$ for a toliet is a good deal?


I personally wouldn't pay a dime over $850!

#14434 by Starfish Scott
Thu Oct 25, 2007 8:04 pm
LOL you just made me snarf my coffee

(I'll get even with you lol as soon as I stop laughing)

#14439 by Irminsul
Thu Oct 25, 2007 9:07 pm
I think some of you ought to tighten your reading and comprehension skills and read what Cally said again.

He said the independent venues were FUNDED by European governments...not controlled. There is a difference. For instance our own govt funds (or subsidizes) education, yet they dont control it - thats for states and localities to do. Like Cally I have travelled and played in Europe (and in Asia), and there is a lot we could learn from Europe about how to foster the arts in a better way. It sticks in my craw when people leap up out of some knee jerk reactionism and screech about "govt control" when they haven't experienced any other society than this one. Let me tell you that our own govt actively SHITS on the arts and has done so for over 12 years. Did you know this idiotic war we're involved in now is projected to cost us over 2.4 trillion...that's

T R I L L I O N

dollars over the next so many years? Yet I don't hear much of a peep about that. But Christ, try to allocate a few million to an arts program and watch the reactionaries start howling and throwing feces from their cages. Bleh.

OK, without overstating the point. Don't read things into the posts of others based on your fear and loathing - read what he said. And also, be open to the fact that some government CAN work (it's supposed to - thats the point) if applied with some sanity and grace. Don't just adopt the extreme hyperbole out of intellectual laziness.

#14442 by ThirdShiftPsycho
Thu Oct 25, 2007 9:18 pm
Irminsul wrote:I think some of you ought to tighten your reading and comprehension skills and read what Cally said again.

He said the independent venues were FUNDED by European governments...not controlled. There is a difference. For instance our own govt funds (or subsidizes) education, yet they dont control it - thats for states and localities to do. Like Cally I have travelled and played in Europe (and in Asia), and there is a lot we could learn from Europe about how to foster the arts in a better way. It sticks in my craw when people leap up out of some knee jerk reactionism and screech about "govt control" when they haven't experienced any other society than this one. Let me tell you that our own govt actively SHITS on the arts and has done so for over 12 years. Did you know this idiotic war we're involved in now is projected to cost us over 2.4 trillion...that's

T R I L L I O N

dollars over the next so many years? Yet I don't hear much of a peep about that. But Christ, try to allocate a few million to an arts program and watch the reactionaries start howling and throwing feces from their cages. Bleh.

OK, without overstating the point. Don't read things into the posts of others based on your fear and loathing - read what he said. And also, be open to the fact that some government CAN work (it's supposed to - thats the point) if applied with some sanity and grace. Don't just adopt the extreme hyperbole out of intellectual laziness.


Perhaps you could use some work on your reading and comprehension skills as well.

A. I already stated that I'm not going to debate politics with you. But, as you stated that you don't hear much of a peep about war spending, I should point out to you that newspapers are readily available. Try reading one sometime. You'll find plenty of bitching. Regardless, I don't think that it's up to the government to support the arts. That should be up to private organizations and individuals in my humble opinion.

B. The original post referred to the fact that you have to submit a playlist to clubs and pay a royalty to any bands whose songs you are covering. My point is that that kills improvisation and goes further to hurt the independent musicians who already make very little money as it is.

C. Yet another opinion that I have with regards to this is that I think it builds a little character in a musician to experience life and not be coddled by a government babysitter. Think of all the great musicians that would never had been had it not been for a little suffering and self realization.

#14444 by Irminsul
Thu Oct 25, 2007 9:27 pm
ThirdShiftPsycho wrote:
Irminsul wrote:Perhaps you could use some work on your reading and comprehension skills as well.

A. I already stated that I'm not going to debate politics with you. But, as you stated that you don't hear much of a peep about war spending, I should point out to you that newspapers are readily available. Try reading one sometime. You'll find plenty of bitching. Regardless, I don't think that it's up to the government to support the arts. That should be up to private organizations and individuals in my humble opinion.

B. The original post referred to the fact that you have to submit a playlist to clubs and pay a royalty to any bands whose songs you are covering. My point is that that kills improvisation and goes further to hurt the independent musicians who already make very little money as it is.

C. Yet another opinion that I have with regards to this is that I think it builds a little character in a musician to experience life and not be coddled by a government babysitter. Think of all the great musicians that would never had been had it not been for a little suffering and self realization.


You must be quite young, and don't recall the founding of the National Endowment for the Arts. Here's a hint for you - it wasn't because Jackie O had nothing to do that day.

The NEA has been instrumental in launching the composing and performing careers of thousands of quality artists since its inception in 1965. The relatively small amount of tax dollars that goes into it pays huge dividends in the resulting art that has flavored out culture. This dog eat dog up-by-your-bootstraps crap you're proferring is pretty shallow minded, and also myopic considering a nation of 350 million people. The NEA is not a "babysitter". It is something that up and coming artists of all kinds can take advantage of for their careers and their work. Don't worry, we can still participate in your Rand-ian utopia of scraping by on the streets by busking. It goes on everywhere.

Or how did you put it? Oh yeah. "Character building".

Pfffft.

#14461 by celticpiping
Fri Oct 26, 2007 12:57 am
and there is a lot we could learn from Europe about how to foster the arts in a better way.


man..I can't believe I'm heading down political trails here...I must be bored..and it's world series night too!!

well, anyway I have been to several countries, and while I do agree some folks can take some lessons away from some nations, such as work/balance, national pride...I would never trade places with the likes of most European countries in general.

I will take my own corrupt huge govt over a socialist model all day long.

Well, until such time as we're on totally equal footing with the rest of em...

man...what am I thinking....

now...where'd I put that stout..

#14464 by Irminsul
Fri Oct 26, 2007 1:10 am
celticpiping wrote:
and there is a lot we could learn from Europe about how to foster the arts in a better way.


man..I can't believe I'm heading down political trails here...I must be bored..and it's world series night too!!

well, anyway I have been to several countries, and while I do agree some folks can take some lessons away from some nations, such as work/balance, national pride...I would never trade places with the likes of most European countries in general.

I will take my own corrupt huge govt over a socialist model all day long.

Well, until such time as we're on totally equal footing with the rest of em...

man...what am I thinking....

now...where'd I put that stout..



I hate to break this to you, but the USA is partially socialist and has always been so. And I'm damn glad for it. Examples of some of our socialist institutions:

Social Security

Medicare

Medicaid

The GI Bill

WIC (Women Infants and Children)

Veterans Benefits

Pell Student Grants


There are more, but I can guarantee that if you tried to pull those from the clutches of American hands, the majority would give you a hell of a fight.

#14489 by ThirdShiftPsycho
Fri Oct 26, 2007 10:48 am
Irminsul wrote:
ThirdShiftPsycho wrote:
Irminsul wrote:Perhaps you could use some work on your reading and comprehension skills as well.

A. I already stated that I'm not going to debate politics with you. But, as you stated that you don't hear much of a peep about war spending, I should point out to you that newspapers are readily available. Try reading one sometime. You'll find plenty of bitching. Regardless, I don't think that it's up to the government to support the arts. That should be up to private organizations and individuals in my humble opinion.

B. The original post referred to the fact that you have to submit a playlist to clubs and pay a royalty to any bands whose songs you are covering. My point is that that kills improvisation and goes further to hurt the independent musicians who already make very little money as it is.

C. Yet another opinion that I have with regards to this is that I think it builds a little character in a musician to experience life and not be coddled by a government babysitter. Think of all the great musicians that would never had been had it not been for a little suffering and self realization.


You must be quite young, and don't recall the founding of the National Endowment for the Arts. Here's a hint for you - it wasn't because Jackie O had nothing to do that day.

The NEA has been instrumental in launching the composing and performing careers of thousands of quality artists since its inception in 1965. The relatively small amount of tax dollars that goes into it pays huge dividends in the resulting art that has flavored out culture. This dog eat dog up-by-your-bootstraps crap you're proferring is pretty shallow minded, and also myopic considering a nation of 350 million people. The NEA is not a "babysitter". It is something that up and coming artists of all kinds can take advantage of for their careers and their work. Don't worry, we can still participate in your Rand-ian utopia of scraping by on the streets by busking. It goes on everywhere.

Or how did you put it? Oh yeah. "Character building".

Pfffft.


Holy sh*t. It really does no good arguing with someone who can't read. Where did I say that all musicians did it for themselves. I fully understand that there are people like you who lack the ability to do anything for themselves without having someone hold their hand. But there are many self taught musicians who have managed to do it on their own and who we would never know about had they not. Those who lack the ability become music snobs like you. People who have no appreciation for varying forms of musical expression, who try so hard to put forth an image to make themselves seem so much more deep than they actually are. It's even in your screen name.

By the way, shouldn't you be getting back to eating boogers and playing D&D? I'm sure the other 47 year old virgins are getting tired of waiting.

#14490 by muzickmage
Fri Oct 26, 2007 11:06 am
I think it would help greatly if there was government funding for musicians ... but i'm thinking more so on the lines of a "business loan" idea. A kind of a "Budget Kit startup fee".

Maybe they can affix some kind of pre-equisite to the load application to prevent every wannabe from applying .... such as ... you need 25 GIGs completed to apply .... or 100 sold CDs .... or something else crazy lol.

I wouldn't see it as the government holding your hand ...... as its not viewed this way when the governement funds a small business... or allows a student's loan. So why would it be considered "hand holding" by the government if there was a government organized "musicians fund" as well?

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