General Music Chat

Hey everyone, first time posting here.

I'm having some serious difficulty writing songs. The band I'm in has 2 guitars (but no bassist or drummer-yet), and with no shortage of material to work with, we presently cannot seem to put a complete song together. I should also mention that both of us are self taught and neither of us have any theory to speak of.... sad, I know.

How do you all approach building songs? Which comes first, rhythm or lead? Or do you start with drums first? For those who use 2 guitars, how do you determine what is or isn't a good balance of playing together vice having the separate lead and rhythm parts? How do you approach placement of variations of previous riffs within the same song?

Regarding the Chorus, how soon is too soon?

Also, I know producers have a huge influence on the content of a song. When should a band look at finding a producer to work with?

Any help you all can give would be greatly appreciated.

Chris [/quote]

You are at the beginning. The best thing you can do at this point is imitate.
Learn other peoples songs. Listen, Listen, and Listen some more.

Everyone up here could swamp you, but your eyes would be rolling .

On a darker note we lost Mark Haines today.

You are at the beginning. The best thing you can do at this point is imitate.
Learn other peoples songs. Listen, Listen, and Listen some more.

Everyone up here could swamp you, but your eyes would be rolling .

On a darker note we lost Mark Haines today.

I agree with Glen . . . imitate, re-compose other songs you are attracted to, learn their styles.

On the Darker Note . . . I'm sorry for your loss Glen, I am not sure who Mark is . . . please tell us.

On a Lighter Note - Death is Transformation, not the End, rather a Beginning.

Hey you got to start somewhere right? Kudos for seeking help on this… a lot of guys won’t ask their pride prevents them.

I don’t know if this is going to be helpful to you but general speaking songs are divided into sections it would be a good idea to know and name these sections.

Any song has to have a start right? That’s called “Intro” it could be done by vocals, drums, bass, lead or rhythm guitar, piano etc.

After that the song progresses into the “verse” which depending on the lyrics could be done with one verse or two, then to keep the song interesting at this point a “Chorus” should come in, at the end of the “Chorus” again generally speaking most songs revert back to the verse hopefully with different lyrics than the first verse or verses.

Following the general formula after the second verse comes the “Solo” which could be based on the chords progression of the verse or the Chorus or combination of both or if you are really creative the solo can have its own chords progression.

After the Solo vocal comes back in either with the verse or Chorus it’s up to the song writer to choose which… at this point the song can go into a refrain if required or it can go straight to an ending or “Outtro”

This is the way I do it but a lot of song writers make up thier own procedure.

If I were you I’ listen has it has been suggested already to your favorite CD and while listening see if you can identify the various sections of the song IE.

Intro
Verse(s)
Chorus
Solo
Refrain (if the song has one)
Outtro.
Hope this helps good luck.

As i listened to your untitled "songs" I felt a little tug on my leg.... could be a draft.
The first cut is really good.

Your songs have structure.
If you don't know how to "write" lyrics but you compose the music, either find a singer and work together to compose lyrics that relate to the feeling of the music or turn it completely over to someone who can do it and see how it turns out.
Singers usually like to write what they sing. But it could be the bass player or drummer doing the writing it doesn't really matter.
Just surround yourself with musicians... someone usually has an ear for melody.
Not always easy to find a singer but it's key in completing songs... trust me on this one.

Thank you all for the advice.

To GlenJ- I was hoping to be swamped Unfortunately I have a million more questions that I simply don't know how to ask.
I started out about 3 years ago learning my favorite songs from tab, and I've only been making my own material for about 6 months. I stopped doing covers completely, but it probably is a good idea to pick it back up again. I'm starting to notice a lot of repetition in my playing style.

Etu Malku - Mark Haines was the host of a couple CNBC morning talk shows.

Nav4c - Ignorance is best aborted with a question. I haven't heard of a refrain, I'll look into it. Thank you for the general formula.

Jahva - Thank you. What we're having trouble with is making something to put lyrics to. We basically have all of these riffs, verses and choruses, solos etc but we're having trouble putting it all together to become another "untitled track". Hopefully when we get a bassist and drummer that will change, but there's no harm in trying to figure it out in the mean time

I apologize for the format. I would quote, but the forums are pretty damn slow on my comp for some reason. This is just easier.

All right CB you kind of sand bagged me cause you didn't have anything posted. moving on.
Songs in form a very important thing to learn, because it helps to learn ANY song quickly. we use alphabetical letters to assign sections.
Simple song.
A section A section A section End AAA End.
next A section B section A section B section End.
Or try a simple jazz format AABA.
Note many blues tunes follow this pattern.
More complicated and nothing is written in stone..
Intro A A B A Bridge A B B end.
Listen and identify how different songwriters work there craft.

Then you get into LYRICS,, Bernie Taupin was one of the few POETS that had the extreme luck of working with a genius that understood the word PROSODY and had the vocal skills to break all the rules. You know who I'm talking about?

This is a whole different post that could run thousands of post's. Perfect example, I'm reading a book by CHAEYA and it's very very good. She is able to take a simple idea, thought or scene and expand it to make it fascinating. At the same time , and this is the trick in writing lyrics, she is able to reduce the whole book into a few verses and a bridge This is a very rare talent. Good Luck.

Try this:


Make a list of your 10 favorite (or most appropriate) cover songs that would fit your band's style/genre. Then, break them down by form and rhyme scheme. They will have a structure with an intro and ending like verse, chorus, verse, chorus, bridge, solo, chorus, chorus (etc)

Then using that form try using your own words. In other words, write a song over a song. Once you've done that a few times, you'll start seeing that the patterns are all similar and can start making your own music from scratch.

And remember that even the perfect song (if there was one) began with unfinished inspiration. I suggest going through the process as quickly as possible to keep the inspiration, then go back and fix whatever parts you aren't too crazy about.

Sometimes I think of lyrics first, sometimes the music comes first. Whenever you have inspiration get it recorded or written down IMMEDIATELY otherwise you'll forget it. You really need a bass player (I'm biased) and a drummer to write tunes IMO. Get the structure down ASAP and work with it. Get input from everybody involved. If a part doesn't "feel" right change it. If you "feel" there's something missing somewhere in the song, figure out something to put there. Intros and endings are critical. A lot of people don't spend enough time with those. Intros especially are crritical to get the listener to CONTINUE LISTENING. When I hear a new tune I invariably turn it off within ten seconds if the intro sucks. As far as lyrics, what in general inerests you? Politics? Religion? Cars? Write lyrics that have meaning for you and quite possible other people will share the same thoughts. it also helps to work with good musicians. They will add good parts over time. Good luck..

I can't really add much more than the fellas have already said. However, I would like to add.

A song can be whatever you want it to be. I like intros, myself, but there have been some songs over the years that just came right at you with everything. I treat each song - and Cisco too - like I would creating and raising a child or say, creating a work of art. You start out with just a couple of lines on the page, then you add a little more, then a little more until it begins to take shape, then you fill in the colors, then you tweak it. Also, you need to know when to quit and leave it be, to declare it finished.

I get these people who love to brag "I wrote this in five minutes." Most of the time I'm thinking, yeah it sounds like it. And that's not meant to be a compliment. Some songs like Red Rider, it took me a long time to write the lyrics because it was a very personal song that I had to translate into a story. I love writing stories, which most of my lyrics are. Cisco on the other hand, loves to compose. Some songs take him a lot of time, and others not so long.

If you get an idea in your head, work it through and apply the basic songwriting structure to it. Then once you have the basic structure of the song down, you can then work on the lyrics. Then you can tweak and decide if you want to add breaks, bridges, solos and such. However, learn to think out of the box. Just remember, there are no rules, just guidelines.

Chaeya

If you want radio friendly:
If you're over a minute in and havent hit the chorus yet, you're doing it wrong.

Hey you got to start somewhere right? Kudos for seeking help on this… a lot of guys won’t ask their pride prevents them.

I don’t know if this is going to be helpful to you but general speaking songs are divided into sections it would be a good idea to know and name these sections.

Any song has to have a start right? That’s called “Intro” it could be done by vocals, drums, bass, lead or rhythm guitar, piano etc.

After that the song progresses into the “verse” which depending on the lyrics could be done with one verse or two, then to keep the song interesting at this point a “Chorus” should come in, at the end of the “Chorus” again generally speaking most songs revert back to the verse hopefully with different lyrics than the first verse or verses.

Following the general formula after the second verse comes the “Solo” which could be based on the chords progression of the verse or the Chorus or combination of both or if you are really creative the solo can have its own chords progression.

After the Solo vocal comes back in either with the verse or Chorus it’s up to the song writer to choose which… at this point the song can go into a refrain if required or it can go straight to an ending or “Outtro”

This is the way I do it but a lot of song writers make up thier own procedure.

If I were you I’ listen has it has been suggested already to your favorite CD and while listening see if you can identify the various sections of the song IE.

Intro
Verse(s)
Chorus
Solo
Refrain (if the song has one)
Outtro.
Hope this helps good luck.

Writing music. It is my belief that to write good original music you need the
ability to hear the music in your head. With this skill or ability you can write without
having an instrument in your hands. Many people write while sleeping and
wake up in the middle of the night with a whole song or the better part of one in their heads. Some can write at work while driving or doing a mundane
task. I think this ability seperates writers from natural writers.

When I write I hear the whole song. All pieces. I let my vocals lead the way
to the structure. Being a vocalist I will sing what I feel and that outcome
determines structure. Also when writing you must constantly challenge
yourself within a song. Meaning step out of your comfort zone and try things
that don't come naturally. This more than anything will make you a better writer.
Use the musicians around you when recording that will play things you have
written with their own style and unique take on it. Give them artistic freedom
with their parts but you always have the final sayso.

Writing is half skill and half gift. Dont confine yourself with patterns and
structure so much though they have their place. Most importantly I
would advise you to keep your mind wide open when writing, musicly and
lyricly.

Good Luck Dude[/b]

Writing music. It is my belief that to write good original music you need the
ability to hear the music in your head. With this skill or ability you can write without
having an instrument in your hands. Many people write while sleeping and
wake up in the middle of the night with a whole song or the better part of one in their heads. Some can write at work while driving or doing a mundane
task. I think this ability seperates writers from natural writers.

When I write I hear the whole song. All pieces. I let my vocals lead the way
to the structure. Being a vocalist I will sing what I feel and that outcome
determines structure. Also when writing you must constantly challenge
yourself within a song. Meaning step out of your comfort zone and try things
that don't come naturally. This more than anything will make you a better writer.
Use the musicians around you when recording that will play things you have
written with their own style and unique take on it. Give them artistic freedom
with their parts but you always have the final sayso.

Writing is half skill and half gift. Dont confine yourself with patterns and
structure so much though they have their place. Most importantly I
would advise you to keep your mind wide open when writing, musicly and
lyricly.

Good Luck Dude[/b]

Exactly.

Our whole band and all our music is based on this theory.

Whole songs or the basic skeletal structure for them have come to me on the spur of a moment and written on old receipts off the floorboard of my Jeep.

If I try to write a song it will suck.
If it comes to me as inspiration and I carry it before the band as such.
It is more likely to come to fruition.

As a drummer and song writer I myself just use a guitar or find a friend with keyboards. I carry a a digital recorder all the time and if I get a line or even a whole song I say it right away and hum the music so I don't forget it. I start with sometimes (if it calls for it an Intro) if not a verse, verse, chorus, verse, solo or bridge, verse, chorus, end. It could change due to each song is different.

You have to work your own style out. Rock, Blues, Pop, all have different ways of doing it. So listen to the music or style you are doing and then take what you have and create your music your way. Back up or back round you have to add as you see fit. Before you even think about a producer or anyone like that build your song list. Record the best of the best of maybe 4 songs and then play it for family, friends, and play out.

If you do cover tunes add one or two originals into your play list and let the people see what you and your band can do. Let them know that it is a original so they ( the audience) can get a feel for the song, beat, lyrics. That is how you can get a take on what is good and bad. After a show ask the people what they thought. Then you can build on that and then create a good CD that you can then sell ant the venues you play at.

Then look for someone to manage you, book you, produce you and so on. I hope this helps. As someone who use to manage bands, do contracts, and other things, I think I know just a little something. So rock on and let me know how it goes. Anything I can help with I am on Bandmix, but due to not being a full member you will need to leave a contact number or e-mail address.
Tom S.