General Music Chat

I couldn't agree more, Ron. I think that I may not have made myself clear on the issues I'm facing, and using the term "professionalism" may have taken away from the point of the OP.

Ron, I really have a lot of respect for what you are doing, and when you mentioned always being prepared, I have to ask:

What do you do when faced with a musical situation, where the other musicians involved are not prepared?

I guarantee you that if, you asked to perform with the same fellas I'm with now, one of two things would happen:

A: You would decline.

B: You would take over-not because you are an egomaniac, but because your knowledge and professionalism (sorry) gives you an edge over the others.

The reality of the situation is that my area is choc-full of musicians, 95% of which don't understand the finer points of entertainment. They would watch many of you perform and stand there in awe, mouths hanging open. However, when it comes to "taking their craft to the next level", they fall short, no so much due to lack of ability, but more so, due to lack of willingness.

SO, where do you draw the line? At what point do you say "These guys aren't on my level".
What choice would you make when faced with the decision of either playing beneath your ability or not performing in public?

I really would like to read your thoughts on this, because it's a decision I deal with every day...

My situation is different than many on this forum … I’m a hired gun, I don’t play in one band. So I’m playing with Pro’s most of the time and with some new players that are trying to break into the hire gun scene.

Sometimes I just a hire player, I keep my head down and play my part the we the artist wants. Have stage presents but not be the center of attention.

Sometime I am the musical director (MD), like with Mystic Bowie that I’m about to go on tour with .. I’ll use this as an example.

I’ve played with 2 of the players, this past summer with Mystic, I was just a pick-up player, not the MD. The bass player was killer and guitar player was OK and the drummer sucked. He got fired. If players are not prepared … they get fired

This past Monday at rehearsal the first take on the first song was ruff but it was a difficult song. I stop the song and jumped on everyone a bit and worked out what was needed to make it work.

Take 2 things started to gel, but the guitarist was not playing his cues (it was an answer / call thing between the guit and horns … I stopped the song again told him that he had to have the cue in there. He quickly got the part down and the band smoked the song.

The rest of the day 30 songs were wicked with the exception of some minor arrangement changes and the guitar player not learning his parts. It went so well (besides the guit player) that I canceled Thursday practice and we’ll just have a run though before the show on Friday. I had a talk to the guit player and told him to pull up his socks and learn his parts .. or else. I won’t be asking him back for the next tour … there’s just to many pro guit player around … they’re a dime a dozen.

My expectation are very high if you call yourself a Pro’s, having the chops goes without saying, have a good ear that hears what is needed to make the song work and a heads up attitude to see what the our player are doing and looking for cues so there are no train-wreaks, in control of your volume and to top it all off you have to have a good attitude and work ethic.

I also play in a band that is just for fun … they’re not the best of musicians, but I’ve known and played with them for many years and it’s for fun .. no pressure and not at all challenging for me but I try to get with them once a week … it’s like a boys night out.

I rarely decline on playing with others that don’t play at my level … people played with me when I didn’t play at their level and that’s how I got here, I just don’t put as much effort into it, or I try new thing (fall off a cliff). When playing with them, I tell them little things to watch for, how to listen, this is a big for me, ppl think their listening but they’re not and learn how to play in a band, which sound easy but it’s really not.

I don’t know how to answer you question as to whether to play with other that are not at you level … that’s your call ... I thinks Phil post kinda covers that.

Sorry for the long post ... I think I got carried away again

Ron

If I played only with people who played at my level I would be very unhappy musically. I mean Beethoven gets old. I feel like a goddess in rock bands because I can play in whatever key they throw at me and it blows them away. Most seasoned celtic bands can play circles around me. But I will hang with them. My actual love is in the jazz world and that is where I excel. But one thing that I love about my skil is I've walked into classical,rock, jazz and celtic performances where I am asked "Mary, did you bring your flute?" That's so cool that they expect me to just jump in. That is priceless.

No worries Prevost.
Where I come from it was always thought that the word came from a profession. i.e. something that a person was engaged upon and usually for profit.

Of course I did have to brush up on the old dictionary and according to Wikapedia and certainly in America that word pertains to someone with a degree which for me sadly, will never wash. A person of very high standing and with oddly enough a degree once told me don't be fooled by badges, emblems and pieces of paper in a frame.

I was classical trained in one theatre, I was and am well known for it too, I don't have a credit, a piece of paper or a degree for it but heck I can do that work with my eyes pretty much closed. This is what you are talking about.

I wouldn't sweat the term. You can do it.
Keep well Prevost.

Actually Chip ... Professional means
The word professional traditionally means a person who has obtained a degree in a professional field. Doctors, Engineers etc.

A professional musician use to be someone with a degree in music and up until the early part of last century, 1900's, most were classically trained, but that has change greatly since the 50's and Pro also came to be know as a person that was self-taught and played at a high level, early Jazz and Blues players .. but even alot of them were classically trained.

It's like I said .. being a pro in my neck of the woods means alot more than getting paid.

But .. as alway your milage may vary.

Ron

I thought I'd better add.....
I'm not slamming people with Doctorates, Degrees or any other publicly held and worked for accolade, of course not, that's completely stupid.

Not being in most peoples league here as regards music it would seem my view is presented to myself by my abilities, what I know, what I hear, what I can do and cannot do.

I think that's why I stay on the creative edge in new things perhaps? Not learning 300 songs. Of course I've known people that do know that many, and some who know many more. Always a pleasure meeting someone with that amount of knowledge and talent, can fall in with just about anything.

Does that make them all professional? Probably so if they turn up on time and do the business professionally and here we go again around the mulberry bush

I dunno. I'm just a Minnow.

I don't know that I've ever shared a stage with someone of Prevost's abilities & experience, but I surely would like to.

In most of the bands I've been in, I find myself giving cues on the changes, either on bass or rhythm guitar or vocals. When I work out bass parts, I'm very specific about the chord changes & the bridges. I work out parts to cue the others, & play them consistantly every time the tune is played. Sometimes I find myself in a rut, too, overusing certain phrases in too many songs, but when the others hear that phrase, they know that we're going to the 4 or the 5 or whatever. In TFRB, so many of our songs fall into that 1-4-5 format, it's tough to come up with a new signature line for each song, & if I did, it would tend to confuse the guitarist who can often get too caught up in his spur-of-the-moment lead so that he misses the changes.

When I played in FMF, though, we did some really interesting material, & only played maybe 3 of those blues-based formula songs. It was challenging, esp on the original material, to write the bass parts. I loved that, & I really miss it.

I'd love to find some ppl to start up a band like that again.

I dunno why I put this in here...I guess I just wanna talk about it...sorry I got off-topic...

Mary
Since you put it in perspective for me, I fully agree with your assessment.

Getting paid does not make you a Pro, that is only one element. I see some pretty sh*itty players getting paid ... and no one would consider them Pro's. To me a pro can do the things I listed ... as well as attitude. Getting paid goes without saying.

There's a few on this forum that could do the task of a Pro ... Crip, Jimmy, JW, N-Paul .. to name a few that stand out. And you maybe one to .. Black ... I don't know.

The only thing holding some back is opportunity, knowing the right people.

I think ... I'm getting carried away with this, and Iapologize, but I feel that the word Pro gets over used in the music scene .. you will know when your playing with a Pro ..

Nuff said.

Ron

That was really well said.

No it wasn't

Things I dont find professional are ........
Wearing a cell phone on stage.
Having a drink in your while singing on stage.
Wearing dated clothing or regular street clothing on stage.
More than one member talking on the mic at the same time.
Private jokes among band members onstage.
A singer that has been told and told to back off during the screaming parts and wont.
really the list goes on. and yes I still have a ball on stage!!!!

Mary
Since you put it in perspective for me, I fully agree with your assessment.

That is exactly what I meant

I would like to include, I know of people who have no degress but are 100% professional. I know of a tuba(ist) who had no desire to go to college, So he asked his dad to pay for his upkeep for 4 years while he did nothing but practice and study tuba. He held up his side of the bargain and now plays in a major symphony. Ian Anderson has no degree but look at his accomplishments.

Sanshouheil wrote:

I fully and respectfully disagree.
Dictionary explanations aside. Professionalism is an attitude and or an attainment.
It is a way of conducting oneself with a respect for that which you endeavor in.
I am a professional nurse, educated, well practiced, and paid.
I am a professional Martial artist (warrior) I have never been paid to fight.
To teach yes, but not to fight. Though fight I have.
I am an amiture guitarest whom approches my craft and gigs as a warrior would. ( ruthlessly )
And I have been paid.
Does that make me a professional guitarest. No, IMO it does not.
When my skill on the fretboard matches that on the hospital floor or my knowlege of the art of war, then I will be a professional guitar player.

Thank you. This is what I was getting at. A code of conduct, or maybe proper business practices.
I appreciate everyone's input! As for me, right now, I'm probably going to drop out of this band-they seem to have a hard enough time just organizing practices...One of my "professionalism" quirks is that I don't do band "practices"...I practice at home, on my own time. I get with the band to "rehearse". In my mind, there's a major difference.
Anyway, thanks again, and I'll let this post die now!