General Music Chat

a lot of great input, and I do appreciate it. For the record, my goal is to build a local following and go from there. Hell, just to play a few gigs just performing my originals-and getting an opportunity to promote my CDs-would be a healthy start!
For me, it always comes down to time and money. If I make the time (i.e., trade in the good job for a lesser one w/ better hours), inevitably, I'll run short on the cash I need to get my music "out there."
If I stay where the money (and benefits) is (are), I'll probably never have enough personal time to get anywhere musically (getting the shift I need really isn't an option-too many people in line ahead of me).
However, there are always possibilities (something I've garnered from this thread), and where there are possibilities, there is hope.
Thank you all very much!

Just wanted to say that the quality of musicians/people on this site are WAY above the par for most other sites.

I've been debating negative attitudes (older musicians who failed?) on harmony central and I can't believe the difference between the positive "can do" attitudes and support of the folks here vs. the "give up, it's a miserable existence" attitudes over there.

Kudos to all you folks, I'm glad I found these forums

Happy new year!

Not from the music I heard posted here ... including my own ... JMO

I think the older musicians were trying to tell you something ... but you didn't want to here it. I don't see anyone overhear that has gotten anywhere close to the hights Pat Coast or Terry D. had achieved. Terry had reach the brass ring before you even were out of dippers, check out him MTV video from the early 80's. I think you should look at the reality of what they are saying about this industry.

I played with Sonny Rhodes about a year ago and had a good disussion with him ... he's around 65 years old. All he knows is music. He's got no exit plan and lives from gig to gig, just existing. He's living in Canada (illegally) now because his health is failing, he has no medical plan in the US so he got himself a Canadian girl friend so he can use her medical. He was scheduled for a double hip repacement this last summer. He looks like he's 80 something ... I guess from the life he has lived, self-inflicted? Maybe.

This guy was at one time as big as BB King, Muddy Waters, Buddy Guy and has a substantial library and has a pack house when he can get a booking but the most venues are small (under 200 seats) ... so he pays the sidemen off and gets a bit of money for his pocket. After a life time of being in "The Bizz" he's like I said "just existing".

This is the reality of this bizz. The only ones that I know that are making a decent living are classical trained musicians with (usually) a master degree in composition and arranging and they write jings, TV and movie scores. If you go to Keyboard Corner at Music Player you can meet a few. There is also not as much negativity over there because they are working in a field that isn't selling to the masses, they only have to please the ones buying their produce. But the level of musicianship is very high.

I'm an old guy. Like Pat & Terry I started out in the 60's playing ... making a living and a good one at that. Live music was sot out by the public in the 60's, 70's and part of the 80's and you could gig 5 days a week (just like a day job). That start going away by the 90's and now there are little to no audience that gives a sh*t.

I'm also a sideman, I play with duo's or trio's that are touring and if they get a larger gig they fill out the band to a 4 or 5 pc to get a fuller sound and better show. I see these guys and gals (some with 6 CD's out, getting airplay) touring across the country and they are scraping money together for gas to make it to the next gig, which is sometimes 500 miles away because of the lack of venues. It's not very pretty.

I know it turn into a bit of a pissing match over there (HC) for you but you should at lest look at the reality of the industry ... at lest keep it in mind so you don't end up like Sonny .... I think that is the message the old guys are trying to get across.

Ron

Just wanted to say that the quality of musicians/people on this site are WAY above the par for most other sites.

I've been debating negative attitudes (older musicians who failed?) on harmony central and I can't believe the difference between the positive "can do" attitudes and support of the folks here vs. the "give up, it's a miserable existence" attitudes over there.

Kudos to all you folks, I'm glad I found these forums

Happy new year!

Not from the music I heard posted here ... including my own ... JMO

I think the older musicians were trying to tell you something ... but you didn't want to here it.

To be honest, I really didn't want to hear it (the negativity), but it really wasn't about me, It was never about me. It was my observation in a different thread about the violinist, where quite a few folks were being extremely negative, to which I reflected on how that same kind of negative attitude (although totally different situation, which is why I chose not to mention the violinist thread) directly affected me, and that I overcame it. How I overcame it and where I'm at in life was never, and shouldn't have been hijacked into the topic.

I don't see anyone overhear that has gotten anywhere close to the hights Pat Coast or Terry D. had achieved. Terry had reach the brass ring before you even were out of dippers, check out him MTV video from the early 80's. I think you should look at the reality of what they are saying about this industry.

Which is why I've always made it a point to NEVER compare myself to other musicians and bands, as you more or less just did. There's always someone better than you, and there's always a band that will be more successful than yours, even if your in the Rolling Stones, you will never be considered by ALL people to be the best band ever. It's a fruitless pissing match, and something I learned HERE, speaking with most of these fine people, is that working together, and supporting each other is a FAR better and more productive method of networking that comparing penis size. Something that HC has WAY too much of.

I played with Sonny Rhodes about a year ago and had a good disussion with him ... he's around 65 years old. All he knows is music. He's got no exit plan and lives from gig to gig, just existing. He's living in Canada (illegally) now because his health is failing, he has no medical plan in the US so he got himself a Canadian girl friend so he can use her medical. He was scheduled for a double hip repacement this last summer. He looks like he's 80 something ... I guess from the life he has lived, self-inflicted? Maybe.

I've never said nor indicated that I'm making stupid decisions without a safety net. The folks on HC said that for me, and somehow it became fact.

I'm an old guy. Like Pat & Terry I started out in the 60's playing ... making a living and a good one at that. Live music was sot out by the public in the 60's, 70's and part of the 80's and you could gig 5 days a week (just like a day job). That start going away by the 90's and now there are little to no audience that gives a sh*t.

I'm also a sideman, I play with duo's or trio's that are touring and if they get a larger gig they fill out the band to a 4 or 5 pc to get a fuller sound and better show. I see these guys and gals (some with 6 CD's out, getting airplay) touring across the country and they are scraping money together for gas to make it to the next gig, which is sometimes 500 miles away because of the lack of venues. It's not very pretty.

I know it turn into a bit of a pissing match over there (HC) for you but you should at lest look at the reality of the industry ... at lest keep it in mind so you don't end up like Sonny .... I think that is the message the old guys are trying to get across.

Ron

You admitted that the industry has changed, but I disagree with your presumptions about what it has become. Some people have changed with the industry, others have not. I have a pretty good feeling that the most bitter of older musicians have not. The horror stories I often hearcan be averted with proper planning, being up to par with the status-quo, and always having a safety net. I've never claimed to be anything but thoughtful and realistic about where I'm at and where I want to be, and I certainly know the realisms of today's industry.

Remember how those same folks reacted to that Dick Dale video? DD was 100% accurate in everything he said, yet, several of the "successful" (whom I call bitter) musicians on HC slammed him and his advice. Stupid. ANY advice is good. Including mine: Don't let negative people drag you down with thier bitterness and failed expectations.

I do appreciate your input, as every story, tidbit of advice, etc... is always read and absorbed.

For instance, I like BLueStrat's posts, he's oldschool, he's obviously had a great deal of touring and experiences to share, and he IS a bit bitter that it wasn't what he wanted it to be, but he's NEVER condesending or nasty to folks, even when trying to inject rationale into things.

What many of them failed to realize in that thread was that they all attacked the messenger because they didn't like the message.

last thing, Prevost82

You notice how here, it didn't turn into a pissing match? Nobody flew off the handle and insulted each other... And the topic, while intended, spawned some really good and insightful conversation.

Also, there are several very successful musicians here that I'm sure you've never heard of. I know a band in alabama that sold over a million cd's last year, and can't get signed. Another band in Ill toured on the warped tour, and can't get signed. The industry is now underground, unless you want to be a carbon copy of Nickelback or Brittany. Don't underestimate this community, else you are foolish.

The only thing that I can say to respond to Prevost82 is this:

Things change.

You talked about the only people you know who are musically successful are the one's with master's degrees, and they're writing movie scores and jingles.

I believe you.

But the industry is in a major state of flux right now. Record labels and industry bigwigs are losing their grasp on the reigns, thanks to the internet as well as their own ignorance. Years of shoving clones down the throats of consumers is about to blow up in their faces in the form one giant financial bitch-slap.
Sure, someone will step up, palm extended and open, ready to take a buck from the public...but that person's gonna have to be smarter than the last. He or she will understand that they need to give the public variety, rather than cashing in on a quick-buck clone.
And that, for us my friend, equates to opportunity.

As far as Sonny Rhodes goes...never heard of him, and so I can't really speak upon his situation. The only thing I can say about it is that I'm pretty sure that guys like BB King made a substantial living during their time in the "Biz". I can only think that Rhodes situation had to be a result of his own lifestyle, or his inability to separate himself (create his own identity) apart from the others in his genre. That's only conjecture...as I said, I'm completely unfamiliar with him.

On last thing, and this is a suggestion to anyone who wants to accept it: If you don't like the way the music industry is running, you DO have the power to change it.

Stop buying CD's. Stop listening to the radio. Stop paying to see artists who aren't getting paid themselves. Boycott DJ's and Karaoke events. Stop watching the country music video channell, for God's sake!! And most of all, spread this message to everyone who will listen!

FIGHT THE POWER! (Okay, I got a little carried away there... )

Agreed Kammerguy ... it didn't go south. But I have had my share of pissing matchs on this site a year or more ago, back when I first joined. It has become a lot more civil.

I was not comparing your playing or ability (musicianship) to anyone else, like you said that never works ... sorry if that’s the way is came across.

The industry has change a lot. When I was started playing every good band I knew got signed for at lest one LP, because the labels could make money and the public was hungry from live music, we barely had stereo systems. Music had a lot less genre’s, so it was easier to come up with a new sound or the next big thing …. god there are so many genre’s and sub genre’s now. That’s what is different. There is so much noise out there that it is hard to find the good stuff, the stuff that sounds different that sets you apart from the rest of the pack. Anyone with a zoom recorder and a MySpace is screaming to be noticed. Added to that, there are fewer and fewer live venues out there and few people going out … in lot of venues your dam near plying for free or you get paid for the number of seats you fill. I can’t see how that’s better …. I see it as more work for less pay.

I agree with you, there are bands still making it in this new industry, but for how long. That’s the problem as I see it. A musician puts all this time and energy into his work, learning his instrument, marketing himself for 15 minutes of fame because the next new thing is right behind him pushing him back down the ladder. There seams to be no legs to being able to make a living even when you’ve made it … so to speak. I made a descent live (paid a mortgage, bought new gear) for over 20 yrs and all I was, was a sideman. That’s what I am saying and that what I’ve seen.

I’m not saying to stop playing or to stop following your dream but realize that success (living off it) is very rare and or tough road to hoe. And I think that is what the old guys over at HC are trying to get across.

Wow, what an awesome reality-check thread.

jw123 makes a great real-life observation about the industry. In order to make a living in the band scene, you need to be gigging at least 5 nights a week, Unless you think your music/band appeal can attract the masses. Because you are effectively self-employed (which I can relate to), Prevost82 makes a terribly valuable insight into the reality of the cost of living including health-insurance in the U.S. and therefore the danger inherant in not having an exit plan. If you can barely get by gigging as a career, how can you even think you can financially back an exit plan unless you are already financially set?

The nature of the music industry necessitates that you either make it big, be professionally suave enough to land a T.V. deal making backing tracks for sit-coms, or "ride baby ride", with your tent in your saddle bags. You either work for a living and play as a hobby, or play for a living - and there's not much weasle room in-between.

My advice is don't quit your day job unless either your band-name can pack the place out consistently and you're a head-liner on a regular basis, or you're already financially set and can afford to gig for peanuts.

As for me, the motto remains "a man's got to know his limitations" and I'll settle with my personal goal of achieving just one thing in life - playing a Blues set on a stage in front of, hmmm. i dunno... is fifty people considered a lot?... and knowing that I was able to entertain an audience in my spare time! But if not,... have the satisfaction of knowing I died trying!

You talked about the only people you know who are musically successful are the one's with master's degrees, and they're writing movie scores and jingles

What I meant was the only people I know making a decent living eg; wife, kids, money for collage, paying a mortgage on a nice home, great studio production equipment ...
I also know guys my age playing the A circuit doing ok, own a house, have a wife & kids. Some of them think they are Vampires because of the hour they keep. And I know quite a few sideman like myself, that do alright ... but it's more of a struggle to stay afloat. All these guys are also well known in the industry so their chances of getting a call are better than most.

But the industry is in a major state of flux right now. Record labels and industry bigwigs are losing their grasp on the reigns, thanks to the internet as well as their own ignorance. Years of shoving clones down the throats of consumers is about to blow up in their faces in the form one giant financial bitch-slap.
Sure, someone will step up, palm extended and open, ready to take a buck from the public...but that person's gonna have to be smarter than the last. He or she will understand that they need to give the public variety, rather than cashing in on a quick-buck clone.
And that, for us my friend, equates to opportunity.

I agree with you ... but because there are so many hands extended and yes, smarter and smarter people before you ... it become harder for you to come up with the next smart thing ... I'm not saying it can't be done ...

On last thing, and this is a suggestion to anyone who wants to accept it: If you don't like the way the music industry is running, you DO have the power to change it.

Stop buying CD's. Stop listening to the radio. Stop paying to see artists who aren't getting paid themselves. Boycott DJ's and Karaoke events. Stop watching the country music video channell, for God's sake!! And most of all, spread this message to everyone who will listen!

It's hard to put the genie back in the bottle after it's out ...

There also is no filter system like there once was when you had to play big bucks to record an LP ... it was a way to get rid of the sh*t players and bands, the audience didn't support them so they had no money to record. Even back then you could record and market a independent LP, if you had the money and fan support ... but now anyone and their dog with a zoom can record and get it out to market for nothing. Do you see the difference here ???? Nobody is filtered, we all hear 90 sh*t bands before we find 1 or 2 good ones ....

My advice is don't quit your day job unless either your band-name can pack the place out consistently and you're a head-liner on a regular basis, or you're already financially set and can afford to gig for peanuts.

Good advise ... I might add pack the place out consistently in a regional area and not just your home town ...

I'm not trying to be negative but the way I'm seeing it look tuff out there. I won't even go on tour with bands anymore unless I know them .... I've been burnt the last 2 X out. I never have been burnt in all my years playing.

Hey ... keep on playing... have fun ... if your young with no commitments (wife & kids) go for the brass ring ... just have an exit plan if you don't get there. That is all we are saying

Ron

Prevost82
You tread heavily but you speak the truth.

Nobody is filtered, we all hear 90 sh*t bands before we find 1 or 2 good ones ....

I was wondering what happened back in 1992 when suddenly all really tasty stuff stopped coming. Please keep in mind that I was still in Russia behind the Iron Curtain and we had only boot leg records from all over the space and time continuum. Thus Stray Cats were just as new to us as Scorpions or Guns'N'Roses and I have this habit to listen to a huge variety of genres because of it. We did not have the 60's/70's/80's distinction. It was all at once and all cool. Then it stopped coming. The market got filled with junk and it is hard to find some good stuff. It is out there, but really hard to find.

Now you have just explained to me the big "WHY?".

You have also opened my eyes, or rather re-affirmed the same feeling I had for many years now. I was born too late. The medium in which I love to express myself has gone and I am outdated in every way shape and form. It became McDonald's like commercial. (Do you want cheese with that?)

I played bass or drums or guitar in cover bands for years, tried an original lineup with a bunch of 23 year-olds (complete disaster) and it just does not cut it for me. Subconsciously I want to resurrect at least a small tiny portion of what the sound there once was. The rebellion spirit, the melody etc. But perhaps it is a futile attempt. There are at least two bands (out of how many thousands) that done it in this century. Mean time at least we have fun trying against all the impossible odds.

There also is no filter system like there once was when you had to play big bucks to record an LP ... it was a way to get rid of the sh*t players and bands, the audience didn't support them so they had no money to record. Even back then you could record and market a independent LP, if you had the money and fan support ...

True again. I am one of them. $75 in hour small "wannabe" studio, room with an electronic drum kit. One and a half hour later I walk out with my drum track recorded directly to my lappie. Anyone can do that.

I sincerely want to say Thank You and the rest of the folks on this thread for posting some real live eye openers.

Some one said: "There is no worth death than the death of hope."
Now the big question is what can be done to change all of that?

Or should we (young / younger generation) just lick our wounds and hide our heads in the sand?

Thanks.
(You are now free to throw chairs).

One thing I really failed to do in my OP (moreso at HC), was to define success and "making it".

To me, they are two different words with two different definitions. "success" can be any achievement, from recording a demo you are happy with, to opening a bottle cap. It's a simple concept with a vast array of definitions, based on personal desire. I consider "successes" as achieving goals, and being able to start on new goals, climbing the ladder, so to speak.

I consider a promotion at my job a success, even though the promotion wasn't to be the CEO. In music, success to me means achieving a new goal.

"Making it" is much harder to define... To many, you haven't "made it" until you have a multi-record deal with a major label, a platinum record, and at least 1 grammy. To me, thats a load... "Making it" is simply achieving your personal goals to the maximum potiential that you set.

Me, personally, "Making it" would be defined as being able to make a living off a career in music. This could be anything from opening a guitar shop, to becoming a recording engineer, to a thousand other jobs that allow me to be surrounded by what I love, music.

To some, there seems to be no difference in the definitions, and mentioning that I feel any bit of one or the other can set off a domino effect of negativity. (more of a reference to the HC topic)

So, while I personally right now feel successful, and want to "make it", my personal definitions and goals are far from what a few people assumed I meant, which is why I frustrate over the constant remarks I got on HC and even in real life like: "you're crazy, you are jumping off a cliff without a parachute... You are a dreamer...etc..."

I never said I would quit my day job, and I'm fully aware that having ANY career in music is not probable.

Just wanted to clear that up.

Me personally, I would not hire an agent or sign with a label. To me, you will end up doing all the work and they will pocket all the money. You can record your own CD and employ a recording engineer who needs the cash. Be your own agent by going from one establishment to another peddling your wares.

I've had some discussions with locals here, and quite a few actually recommended getting a booking agent. Their reasoning was that in almost every gig, the extra money they are able to get for you more than pays for their cut. On top of that, they get you bigger and better gigs than you can get on your own, especially with clubs to only talk to agents.

I could be wrong (and correct me if I am!), this is a lot of heresay, but like I said, I try to absorb everything I read, discuss, etc...