General Music Chat

This is my live looping cover of U2's "with or without you".

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-c10Q80TI5w

I was disappointed.

I'm really sorry.


I couldn't watch it all the way through.

I hate saying that, cause I am a fan.

I got to :46
when you looked at me, I had ta bail doode..

huge bono phan here too..
ballsy posting a U2 cover, IMHO

Thank you Craig, can you elaborate? It bites but I need it and can take it. How far in did you get?

I got to :46
when you looked at me, I had ta bail doode..

uh can you just listen (as opposed to watching) and critique? I don't think I looked at "you" again.

Hey,
I just finished watchin it and I did so BEFORE seeing anyone elses post and my first reaction was enjoyin watchin all the loopin takin place (never saw it in action).Put some shoes on .. Then , when the vocals got more intense , I thought Man , Hes got good range and vibrato..Then , I thought, He must be ambience micing through the air cause it sounds LIVE and middy (ailttle canny) I listen through the near fields and the cans and it was about the same...I guess Im different in that I didnt even compare this to anything.I over all enjoyed it!!.BUT , I respect those giving their opinions who did .We're all brothers on here and I know all comments are meant to be constructive..

John

That was a little brisk. I should have explained a little more...


-------- THE GOOD --------


What was "good" is what I have come to expect from you. Namely, you are very smooth on the looping, and that comes across well, that you are juggling and doing it very smoothly.

Multi-Instruments. LOVE IT.

I play several instruments fairly well, and can muddle my way through several more. So I admire that kind of talent, and you have it.

The video was fine. Transitioning. Different angles, etc...

Hey, you can even drink a glass of water in-between the looping.

That's cool, however, on this particular song, that also is a perfect lead-in to the bad...


------ THE BAD -------


The number one issue, is that musically, doing it all yourself, you are doing fine, but EMOTIONALLY.... emotionally, you shatter, what is a beautiful and powerful and deep song.

You seem to be singing, and getting the notes right, but without feeling. You are singing the song without any emotional nuances in your voice. While I am a firm believer in making covers "your own" as much as possible, some things are almost sacred. I'm not saying, imitate Bono.

But go listen to him again, watch the U2 video...


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yEfSnjL0pd8


His voice is firm but whispery, or breathy, especially in the beginning, which sets THE WHOLE SONG UP!

The entire song, is one HUGE crescendo, like a long powerful climax. It just grows, both in volume, power and emotion, steadily, almost throughout the whole song, till the very end.

He carries US, as listeners, on that journey with him.

There were no real nuances in your voice throughout the beginning and really, up to half-way through the song or so. Well, let me change that. I watch and hear, you playing with your voice some, but you are so focused on the melody and inflections of your singing as "sound" that you lose the greater "feel" and "purpose" of the song, which more than the melody or musicianship itself, is what MAKES the song powerful and moving.

The water glass is the perfect metaphor.

You are so good at what you do and so casual, that you can drink some water mid-way through before sitting down at the drums.

Impressive.

But that also works AGAINST the emotion and feel of the song.

The singer is beside himself. He is full of angst. He is at the bottom of his rope, but is he victim or perpetrator? Maybe both? The long climatic nature of the song, gives you the feeling that the pain and angst are growing and growing to a scream or rather, a huge release. Like someone relieving a building pain to the point of explosion and release.

There is TREMENDOUS emotion in the combination of melody and structure, and Bono's vocal inflections and nuances, which even when subdued, are still felt clearly.

Take just these words alone...

Nothing to win and
Nothing left to lose


Simple words. But think about them for a moment.

How would that feel?

When there is nothing left to lose, you either despair or you just go for it. He can't go for it, cause as he says, there is "nothing to win".

What an impossible and hopeless feeling. Sometimes "nothing left to lose" makes you fearless, and can even be liberating to some degree. Yet there is no liberation here, cause all the powerful emotions that come with... "nothing left to lose" has nowhere to go, nothing to fight for.


Whether intentional or not, the water glass thing, conveys a feeling of calm and cool, or else aloofness. "Hey, I'm in control, nothing wrong here, in fact, right in the middle of switching instruments, I'm so in control of time and all these instruments, that I'll video myself drinking water mid-switch, and calmly set it down before laying the drums down."


That doesn't convey...

Angst
Desperation
Hopelessness

You are one of the truly talented people on here.

Don't waste that, even on one song, by losing the HEART of what the song was written for, the story it tells, and the emotions it is meant to convey.

I don't know why everyone is freakin out..."OH NO! NOT A U2 COVER! IT'S SACRED!"...

It's just a song...get over it.


It's hard to put your whole heart into the song when you have to keep track of like playing 4 instruments, singing, and working a bunch of buttons all at the same time.

You did a good job as usual, Paul. Don't let these jerks get you down.

You did a good job as usual, Paul. Don't let these jerks get you down.

Ryan,

Personal insults are not called for in this situation.

I didn't insult anyone personally.


Paul is an adult Ryan. Not a 4 year old.

Not only is he an adult, but I consider him my peer musically.

Like me, he is also a straight shooter and a perfectionist. If he was afraid of healthy criticism, he would not ask for critiques, but would say "Tell me how great this is, or say nothing."

But he seeks to master his craft even more, and desires adult opinions on it, for better or worse, as opposed to needing child-like approval for everything he does.

Paul is not a beginner. Very far from it.

In fact, I can say in all honesty, that had I come across Paul about 5 years ago or so, before I came back to the music scene myself, I might have asked him to let me take him on, as his manager or agent.

I'm not joking in the least.

I think he is very talented, and almost as importantly, very unique and original in his style as well as some of his writing.

In my opinion, he could be a very successful niche artist.


As to "It's just a song"...


Perhaps this betrays your lack of experience. You are a young guy, and like many young people, you likely have not been exposed to enough life or enough history, to know, what you THINK you know.

It happens to the best of us. It's a growth process.

When I was in my early 20's, I had a manager tell me "I don't think you really begin to understand life very deeply, until you get to your 30's"

Well, I laughed that off.

"Yeah right" I thought... "I've got it all figured out now."

Well, lo and behold, I saw things in a very different way when I was in my 30's and realized that she was right. My views matured as I matured. There is no real substitute for life experience Ryan, but life experience itself.

A song is just a song. Paintings are just paintings. Books are simply books. Words are only words.

This is true, but only superficially. Adults see the meanings behind things. And while we recognize that songs are songs and words are words, we also have the benefit of life experience and maybe a knowledge of history, to show us that - ALL THOSE THINGS I MENTIONED - have substantially impacted lives, families, governments, and even the world as a whole, at various times in history.

Abraham Lincoln said this to a controversial author of a book which at the time, had sold more copies than any book other than the Bible.

"So you're the little woman who wrote the book that started this great war!"

That great war, was the Civil War. A war, which, to this day, cost more American lives than any other. That book, was Harriet Beecher Stowe's novel Uncle Tom's Cabin.

The book was just a book. The meaning behind the book however, altered history forever.

If you are living your life without seeing meaning in things Ryan, sadly, you are missing the most important part of what you are looking at or listening to.

Craig,
THANK YOU! That was thorough and accurate and did not hurt nearly as much as I thought it would. It hurt a lot less after you broke it down. I mean really - You are right specifically about the emotion. I really wasn't processing in my heart the emotion behind the lyrics . I had only been working with the song for about 3 practices. I had a few problems with the vox before. Like you said I'm a perfectionist (like you). I really appreciate both the confidence you have in me and the fact that you are willing to break it down in such a thorough specific way. I will probably redo it now with clear goals in mind. This is the song I am trying to use to get on America's got talent.

Ryan,
Thanks for gettin' my back buddy, but Craig actually shows a lot of character to first say he was disappointed. Then to be so specific is just down right nice, constructive, and helpful, and I really appreciate it.

John,
The reason it has that "sound" is a combination of 2 sound inputs. One is a direct line from my mono P.A. into my mini disc recorder. The second is the nice quality stereo mic with compression on my sony digital video camera. It gets a great natural room sound. I also take the mono 2 tracks from my mini disc and shift one back in time a tiny fraction of a second with gives it a natural chorus and fattens it up. Then I play around with the camera's two stereo tracks in relation to the 2 chorused tracks from the mini disc.

Another huge thing to me regarding uploading music to youtube is a wmv to flv converter I downloaded for free. If you upload a wmv to youtube it makes your stereo track mono which of course loses a lot of effect. If you instead convert it to an flv and then upload it maintains the original stereo audio.

Oh and Celtic, nobody is off limits in my opinion as far as covers go. Not Otis Redding, Robert Plant, Freddy Mercury, or Ella Fitzgerald or anybody else. Range is the only deciding factor for me.

Thanks again to all who critiqued! More from others are welcome and appreciated.

It bites but I need it and can take it.

I know, and I expect the same from you brother!


I think you can understand where I am coming from through my explanation above though. The song would not be half what it was, without Bono's emotional vocals. You are singing in a fairly strong and even voice where subtlety is called for. That's what allows him to build throughout the song. Starting off softer, more subdued, yet emotional. You are a talented enough singer to accomplish this through your voice, but it could be realized also through facial expressions.

There is something ancient within each one of us, and these millenarian emotions are easily triggered through expressions, tones, intensity, etc... that summon primal emotions within each of us, and across language and cultural lines as well.

i.e. A certain kind of piercing guttural Screaming is universally understood to be angry. We also scream for joy though, and may scream from pain. But even though these are all "screams" - we can usually distinguish quite easily, which scream is which, whether we saw the person or not, or understood the language or not. It is nuances of tone and structure, that tells us what the nature of it is.

Mothers worldwide, use "baby speak" (like singing almost) when talking to babies. It is a sharp, up and down rise in pitch.

"You are a pretty BA /\ BY aren't you? Yes you A /\ RE!"

Psychologists have determined that it is universal, and babies respond no matter who the mother is, or what language is spoken.

So, on a side note... if anyone ever wonders whether musical tone is important, just realize, that we responded to PITCH before we understood language.

But similarly, you can tell a dog how bad he is, and how upset you are at him, but if you do it in a "happy dancing tone" then he will wag his tail and lick your face off no matter what you tell him. So, even dogs respond more to primal emotions and tones than any spoken words they can be taught to obey.

So, in that vein, softer and more breathy tone conveys certain emotions, but a stronger even voice, conveys other emotions.

So, I know I've written alot. Sorry. But that is the gist of it...


The song lyrics and melody portray a profound desperation and near hopelessness. That gets lost in your delivery of them. And in doing so, at least for me, that means it loses what made the song so powerful in the first place.

Agreed Craig, and don't be sorry for writing too much. I appreciate it!

AND WHAT ARE YOU DOING UP AT THIS HOUR?

You are a musician fer crying out loud! Or are you still just up?

Craig,
THANK YOU! That was thorough and accurate and did not hurt nearly as much as I thought it would. It hurt a lot less after you broke it down.

Hey you posted this comment while I was sending that last comment. LOL

But I know you understand, that if I didn't admire your talent, I wouldn't be so direct. When I studied Tae Kwon Do, my master was a 7th degree black belt. World renowned. He was brutally critical of me. More than anyone else in any of the classes I attended, which was 3 a day, twice a week. I told his assistant how this bothered me, because I was trying to be absolutely perfect and worked so hard to be that way. The assistant told me that he was toughest on me, because I was the most committed student there. He saw the most potential in me, so he was the most critical of me, so I would live up to it. The assistant told me that I should only worry when he STOPS criticizing me at all, because that would mean that he believes you don't care, and so he wouldn't waste his time with criticisms.

Agreed Craig, and don't be sorry for writing too much. I appreciate it!

AND WHAT ARE YOU DOING UP AT THIS HOUR?

You are a musician fer crying out loud! Or are you still just up?

I'm going through alot. Let me rephrase that...


ALOT!!!...


... on the home front, in every imaginable way. Emotionally, financially. It's just POURING right now, and has my schedule backwards.

But thanks for asking. LOL


Everything improves with time, but it's just the "getting there" period, that is so difficult sometimes. I try and remind myself, that storms can be strong and violent but usually brief, compared with the calm that follows.

So, I'm looking forward to a long calm.

"Lord, give me patience.... AND HURRY UP ABOUT IT!!!!"

LOL

"Lord, give me patience.... AND HURRY UP ABOUT IT!!!!"

LOL

\\
Seriously though I will offer up a prayer on your behalf this morning.