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#26199 by lalong
Mon Mar 24, 2008 6:23 am
Moshwitz just posted a thread about some wild sound editing software. You can actually edit individual notes within a chord. It's pretty cool, you can check it out here: http://forum.bandmix.com/viewtopic.php?t=5168

Some people compose entirely through computers and software, never touching a musical instrument. Others use quantize loops and samples, some layer multiple tracks (needless to say I couldn't play those 8 tracks "live" simultaneous) and MIDI recording. Noise removal, panning, punch in/out, at what level is it too much technology to be considered legit?

I used to feel that live straight through was the only answer if you ever wish to perform live. But people who would buy CDs usually wouldn't care if you played for decades and are performing while standing on your head. All they care about is how it sounds. So if you handicap yourself to "keep it real", what's the chances it will ever get heard?

I always wondered where is the common acceptable moral threshold for created music? How you folks feel about it?

#26201 by Craig Maxim
Mon Mar 24, 2008 8:13 am
That's damn cool sh*t!

Should be good for studios, but I think even better for songwriters wanting to play with ideas.

#26210 by HowlinJ
Mon Mar 24, 2008 1:32 pm
Another great tool, like the Internet, the synththesizer, the hammer, the laser level, the Hubble Space Telescope, the Ford Model T, ....just tools..

What's important is what you do with them. :wink:

#26291 by The KIDD
Mon Mar 24, 2008 10:19 pm
Hey Gang,

YES...IMO, we have...Gone TOOO FAR...Comin up with better ways to record, EQ, process, etc is fine..BUT>>>.Let me ask this first...How many of you out there teach?....You guys will know what Im talkin about ...Ive taught Drums , Guitar and Banjo for 16 yrs and the brains Im getting here lately, 99 to present, certainly fight learnin,(as Jethro would say... :lol: )...With software to slow tunes down, and programs that play for you....NOT GOOD. when learning...Now, if your gonna do nothing but record on here and colaborate, fine....Playin live, learn and progress the old fashioned way in training some MUSCLE MEMORY and developing an EAR, and learning some TECHNIQUE...Now , look at me, My piano playin sucks, BUT IM TRYIN...Im NOT gonna sequence my parts...Ill play them till I gettem right or die tryin... :lol: ....HEY KEYBOARD PLAYERS HELP!!!! , (so I wont be another 10yrs tryin to finsh "ANDREA".... :lol:
For you youngins out there, LEARN some keys and/or Piano basics (fingering) Your tastes in music may change later and you'll WISH you could play keys profiently.... :cry:


John

#26326 by Craig Maxim
Tue Mar 25, 2008 2:51 am
This software is not for live performance.

It's just an editing software.

Complaints about using tools in the studio, or not doing something in the studio that "can't be done live" is kind of naive.

Anyone with plenty of studio time under their belt, knows that a studio is nothing but tools. Many of which, if not most, cannot be duplicated by only the band members themselves in a live setting. A simple band, that duplicates EXACTLY in concert, what goes into an album, is the exception and not the rule.

An absolute purist would have to go back to the days of Sun Records to follow that pattern, where everyone stood around a single microphone and had to do everything perfectly (or close) or do the whole song over.

Multi-tracking dramatically improved recording. Various sound levels could then be set to perfection. If one guy made a mistake, just that musician, could re-do his take, without having the whole band perform the entire song over.

This all led to groups using tricks like backmasking for effects. And Phil Spector's famous "Wall of Sound" technique, using layering techniques.

In this day, professional artists should understand the difference between producing studio albums and live performances. They are completely different things.

The acoustics possible in live venues, is not easily duplicated naturally when laying things down on recordings. In the studio, it is very common practice to double the same guitar parts (ala Phil Spector) especially for acoustic guitar. This is not possible on stage without effects or additional guitarists.

And no one I know, other than that girl from the exorcist, can backmask their voice successfully. LOL

In the interest of saving time in the studio, and therefore MONEY, I think it is potentially a great tool for artists.

#26409 by TravisG
Wed Mar 26, 2008 2:48 am
I don't see anything wrong with multi-tracking at all, especially for one man bands. An artist want his/her best to be put on the album, and multi-tracking is definitely the easiest way to do it. But when you computer generate a whole song, it's basically like ur not a real musician. Overall with all these fake pop and hip-hop artists I think we have gone too far. At least try to have a say in what you want your music to sound like, no matter what the genre is.

#26418 by HowlinJ
Wed Mar 26, 2008 5:51 am
I concur with what your saying Travis, But, like Craig alluded to , you can't be afraid to check out new things.
Everything, even Piper's Ullian bagpipes, were cutting edge technology at one time.
What constitutes "to much" is ultimately just a mater of opinion.

#26420 by philbymon
Wed Mar 26, 2008 7:33 am
I always ask myself WWBD? (what would beethoven do) heh heh heh

My dad was the purist...I remember hearing him gripe about synths & sampled sounds...he'd say that if you want a trombone on your recording, then either get a trombone or a trombonist

I disagree, mostly due to the cost factor, and all in all I embrace any technology that helps the composer to get his ideas out there


Technology is great for many ppl on so many levels...the musician/carpenter who's lost a finger...the beginner genius who doesn't want to work too hard learning about music, just wants to get it out of his system...the savant...who cares if the composer can't play!

But I digress...

Far be it for me to get all curmudgeonish about any tool that helps me to get myself recorded, & helps me make the best sounds possible for my buck

#26537 by philbymon
Thu Mar 27, 2008 7:16 pm
On the same subject, I saw that band "Live" in concert...my goodness that singer's got a wide range!

They bragged that they recorded nothing that couldn't actually be played live by people, not machines...then proceeded to play keyboard arpeggios & sampled/synth-generated sounds...still...it WAS human-driven, I suppose...no sequenced stuff that I could tell.

Loved the singer's abilities, but thought thier material was a bit weak.

Pete Townshend uses sequencer stuff, but it never bothered me. Love his work & would gladly pay to watch him play with it.

#26887 by Paleopete
Sun Mar 30, 2008 12:33 pm
Pete Townshend uses sequencer stuff, but it never bothered me. Love his work & would gladly pay to watch him play with it.


Using a sequencer a la townsend is one thing, he can also play guitar, bass, keyboards, drums and I think a few wind instruments. He proved he was an accomplished musician before the sequencer was invented. Nothing all that wrong with playing it yourself then making a loop of it, you already proved you can actually play it...

What I hear on contemporary recordings is an altogether different animal, the ability to create a song entirely by way of programming a sequencer does NOT make you a musician. Lots of commercial "music" is out there that was recorded by people who wouldn't know what to do with a piano if you threw it at them. (how many rappers can actually play anything at all???) People who have never bothered to take the time and expend the effort to PRACTICE for years to learn an instrument, then pretend to be musicians, and even get angry if you say they aren't, even though it's true, don't impress me at all.

I never listen to radio, I got sick of the same 30 songs over and over and over years ago, the only time I hear much other than my CD/album collections is juke boxes when I play live. I heard one I think by Cher a couple of nights ago, I'm pretty sure heard a vocal rise in pitch that was electronically generated, I don't think a human can change to a different pitch and back that fast. I thought of it as cheating. Just like the guy in grade school who tried to bully me into letting him copy my test answers, by slamming me against a wall and telling me he and his two buddies would kick my butt, I didn't like it. When he and his 2 buddies met me as I got off the bus the next morning, I chased him around the school with a baseball bat, that's what I think of people who cheat. I wasn't going to let 3 guys, all bigger than me, beat me up because he was too lazy to STUDY like I did. I told them go ahead and jump me, I'd catch them one at a time. I meant it...and I made sure he was first...And I made a point of hiding my test answers, and grinning at him every time I put the extra sheet of paper in his way so he couldn't see. I also told the school principal he could go ahead and take my bat away, I'd just bring another one. No way I was going to let 3 bullies force me to cheat. Or beat me up because I didn't. He took my bat, I brought another one but didn't have to use it. I think he got their attention...the ring leader never even looked like he wanted to jump me again, his buddies never made another attempt either. And I got a lot of respect around school for being the only one who had ever stood up to him and his moron cronies.

I have the same basic opinion of people who can't play a note on an instrument and record using the computer and sequencer then try to call themselves musicians. If you can play a half dozen instruments, as Townsend does, I don't have a problem with using a sequencer as well, as a tool to expand the possibilities, but if the sequencer is all you know how to create music with, don't try to call yourself a musician. I practiced for many years to be a musician, I play several instruments, sing lead and harmony vocals, repair my own guitars and saxes, and am learning to repair tube amps. I also doa little songwriting, but I'm not proficient at it. I've EARNED the right to call myself a musician, I've worked for it. If you haven't worked your butt off to learn the instrument(s) you haven't earned that right. Townsend did, McCartney did, Gilmour/Pink Floyd did, Ian Anderson did, I did...they can all play multiple instruments, Gilmour is the one who actually played most of the bass parts that won Roger Waters' awards. He's also a very good keyboard player. That tells me it's not an unreachable goal.

Electronic recording tools are a good thing, but should not be used to entirely create something you call music. Music starts with a musicians fingers, not a bunch of ones and zeros inside a hard drive.

Yeah I'm old fashioned, yeah I'm a purist and proud of it, but nobody who came in the club Friday night can or will even try to say I'm not a musician. The club owner was the first one to comefind me, shake my hand and tell me he hadn't heard a better guitar player in a long time. (I'm not really THAT good, so that's a reflection of the talent in this area, or lack of it...and I made minor mistakes several times, but fortunately none that made me mad at myself, nothing that really bombed...) I'm always embarrased by that kind of compliments, I don't think I'm anywhere near the best guitar player in town, I'm just the only one sober enough to impress anyone...And I've used the electronics too, I've played in two club acts that used drum machines, due to shortages of real drummers and the inability of those who were available to keep decent time and stay sober enough to do it. But if I could split myself like an amoeba I could also play the drums myself...or my "other" self anyway...

Use a sequencer if you want to, use the software, but if you haven't done the work, practice and self criticism I have put myself through for 45 years, don't call yourself a musician.

[End Rant] :D

#26915 by The KIDD
Sun Mar 30, 2008 5:11 pm
AND the Congregation says"A MEN"... :lol: Well said... Yeah ,Pete I did studio project on banjo a while back and this Cat played me some of his original stuff including some great sounding Christmas tune tracks..It was a shocked becuase this Cat is a bluegrasser who is an excellent flatpicker and mandolin/vocal...He did it all with "Fruity Loops"...He showed me how it works and I thought just operating that thing, assigning notes, and creating these orchestra pieces was a feat in and of itself...Gotta really know music to create with that..(and the patients of JOB) :lol: .I found myself wanting to say Yeah , but????
....Well, you didnt really play but, ???? :lol: ...I had to hand it to the guy 8) ....It would be outta character for ME to do that..Im bustin my butt to get more profient on piano so I can play my tunes LIVE into cool edit...
Im up to 90 BPM... :lol:

John

#26930 by Irminsul
Sun Mar 30, 2008 9:48 pm
Beethovens tools were plenty of wine (the lead-lined goblet he used for it likely sped along his demise, according to some historians) and a bucket of cold water he poured over his head when he sat down to compose (he claimed it stimulated creative brain function).

Seriously though, IA makes a great point. Nothing wrong with learning the current tools for the betterment of your recordings...but if the piece really cannot stand on its own, without the buttresses of technology, then it's not much of a piece. First things first.

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