jookeyman wrote:Marky was talking about different approaches and we were going to talk this up eventually because I think it's very interesting myself. Here again, I think Marky likes a lot of mids in his bass tone.
i really don't have a single approach to bass tone but instead one that depends on the situation. when i play honky tonk and rock at the truck stop i've got plenty of low end booty (and i'm playing 6 string w a low B)....likewise when i'm playing bluegrass and i'm drafted to play bass....(upright or elec) i've got plenty of low end. that said....what i feel very strongly about is not just being felt... but being "heard". i put a lot of thought into my note choices and so think the pitches should be very clear and discernable at all times. a bass tone that has too much bottom easily becomes mushy and worse.....can cover up the kick drum, and overwhelm the other instruments making them harder to hear.
I tend to go for the lower frequencies on bass to make more room for the guitar. This really came to my attention when I started playing electric jazz. I like a dark round guitar tone so the bass has to really get down in the lower frequencies so there won't a 'clash' between the two.
in that regard, we have the same thinking.... but we come at the problem differently. in jazz, the gtr almost always has a dark tone...and that's precisely why i'm careful about not having too much emphasis on my low frequencies w my bass tone.
a warm and low boosted gtr tone AND the same from the bass? and then you add a kick drum, and maybe a keyboard and/or a horn???? trouble brewing! too much low end and everything becomes less distinct and it's harder for the audience (esp the non music types) to discern who's playing what!
that also brings up another important point....i'll adjust my tone w regards to the instrumentation( for both recording and live). we recently played a three pc Planet gig w drums, sax/clarinet, and me on bass. now, when we play like that (maybe my fave combination) w/o a gtr or keyboard there, i play w a lot more bottom end. both to take up space and give the horn a nice, fat, and comfy bed to play over where he doesn't feel all naked and exposed....but also it's because i'm not competing w keys or a gtrst that has that nice warm low end-ish tone we were speaking of.
one more factor about my choice(s) for tone. i already mentioned and alluded to considering the instrumentation of what the bass is playing with....but the other consideration... and this goes to what i was saying about being heard clearly and having good pitch distinction....is what (bass) instrument i'm playing.
fretless is an instrument that easily gets lost in the mix w too much low end. of course, you can go the other way w it too....it can be quite in your face if it's EQ'd w not enough lows and much mids and highs!
i TRY to go for something in the middle on my recordings (and live work)....my goal is providing enough low end to make that side of things work....but also having enough highs and mids where the instrument speaks clearly and the listener has no problem sussing things (the different instruments) out.
of course this all highly subjective and personal. (and that's why i do find it interesting to discuss and hear about different folks' take on it). i've never been a "bass should be felt and not heard" kind of guy......esp so when it comes to jazz.
one more thing....w too much low end, you really would never be able tell if i'm playing my fretless P or my fretless J. hell, too much low end... and you might not even pick up on the fact that it IS a fretless!
this is also how i feel about too much distortion on gtrs. at a certain point you don't hear the "GUITAR". by that i mean you wouldn't know if it was a FENDER or a Gibson...much less whether it was a strat vs. a tele.....or an LP versus a 335. and i want to hear the INSTRUMENT. too much low end on a bass...and i no longer hear the "instrument" the way i want to.
Take 'Astrid' for instance. Mark is playing a pretty bright tone on guitar so I'm thinking my bass (even though it's busy) isn't stepping on him. This may be contributing to our different ideas about 'space' in music. To me, music can be busy if it doesn't step on another instrument in the same frequency range . Listen to the Tony Williams Lifetime # Emergency! The bass line is playing in 8ths and McLaughlin is playing like a wild man over this line. There is no empty space but you don't hear a 'clashing effect' between instruments. Also listen to Bach's Fugue in G minor. This # will blow your mind.
i think there might not be anything as personal and subjective as everyone's views on "space"! and as we've been talking about....it's not just about "how many notes" are being played.
tone.... AND the amt of reverb/delay on a recording are also huge factors in that.
jook, when you sent that last mix my way.....where you backed off the low end of your bass line.....it immediately opened things up to my ears and sounded much less cluttered. the very active and angular gtr i played suddenly had a little more to breathe.... as did the drums.
so, with space and busy-ness being in the ear of the beholder, there's no right or wrong. i never could get w a much of Mahavishnu Orch because there too often there just wasn't enough space for me. Weather Report (all the different personel groupings) as busy as those f**k could play....they pretty much always left enough space (for my ears and tastes, anyway!)
Mark likes to play bass w/ a lot of mids and I noticed his Planet Jazz bassist does the same. When this happens, everyone has to leave blank space because two people are playing in close proximity (frequencies). If you throw all those mids together you get mud on your face.
yeah, Bill and i, we're both "tone guys"....and by that i don't mean that we have great or even good tone. i mean that we spend a lot of time, and put a lot of thought into what we want to sound like.....and of course that's based first on what we believe enhances everything else that's going on....but also, we don't want to play too muddy we're we cover up what else is going on! we've all heard bass players who just obliterate everything else by playing w too much mud. no good. esp for jazz! and so, it's that balancing act of having your voice heard in a loud noisy room while STILL providing enough low end to make it all work. and that's VERY subjective stuff for the listener to decide! one man's ceiling and all that.
very interesting stuff, methinks.
and because i haven't babbled on long enough already...let me throw out what i consider another huge piece of the puzzle when it comes to space and letting things breathe.
too many bass players don't take note length into consideration. instead, they have a uniform (long or short) length to walking lines. mah gawd....that's like listening to someone prattle on at length in a monotone! and for bass players, note length is just as important in any kind genre of music.
when i hear people playing root five bass lines in country of bluegrass with the same note length i check out pretty quickly! it's amazing how you can make a simple root five bass line (even just vamping on one chord for awhile) come alive and give it breath by varying your note length.
