General Chat (Non-Music-Related)

Of course it's possible that a supreme "being" (or force or intelligence) created the universe, but that leads back to the question "who created the supreme being?" These are all fun topics but to say you KNOW the answers is beyond arrogance and approaches evil.

Agreed, and fair enough.

I'm just saying that I actually invested 4 months of my life obsessively to prove my atheism was correct....and failed to ultimate blessing. Wish you were here, btw.

ted, i think you've mistaking my being incredulous w being arrogant!

I sincerely apologize for reading that wrong. Sorry, should have known that.

.no atheists have ever waged war based on their beliefs or manipulated religion for Crusades or "Holy" jihads.

Are you kidding???? Many more millions have died because of atheists than religious wars.

Stalin, Mao Tse Tung, Pol Pot....just in the last century. ALL of them were waging a war against the belief in God in their respective nations.

no worries, ted. in spite of my opinions on gun control i too can be too quick to pull the trigger!

i'm not so sure the examples you list above are on point though as the wars they waged weren't necessarily fueled and motivated by "religious" differences as much as politics and economics.

Mark, I think that's just semantics. If I believe something then I know it; likewise if I know something I believe it. But if you insist, substitute the word you like better. Regardless, I know that atheists detest when I say they're not unlike the religious, sorry about that. But whether you believe God exists (or doesn't) or you know God exists (or doesn't) it's all the same to me. When it comes to God, NO ONE KNOWS ANYTHING.

not so sure that it's semantics....i personally think there IS a difference between christians (and other religions as well, to be fair) who say they BELIEVE god exists and those who steadfastly will argue they KNOW for a fact he does.

same bit w atheists like myself who doubt god's existence and those who claim to KNOW he doesn't.

i think this is where "faith" comes into play for those who don't claim to KNOW god exists, but instead BELIEVE he does. (and acknowledge it that way).

When it comes to God, NO ONE KNOWS ANYTHING.

and here i believe, have faith, and KNOW that we're on the same page!

i'm not so sure the examples you list above are on point though as the wars they waged weren't necessarily fueled and motivated by "religious" differences as much as politics and economics.

Except for the Spanish Inquisition (which started as an investigation of messianic Jews) and the Islamic hordes, few "religious wars" were actually over religion. That was just used as an excuse for plunder, and a way to manipulate the masses.

For example: The Crusades were launched as a response to Islamic terrorists...my how things have changed, eh?

personally think there IS a difference between christians (and other religions as well, to be fair) who say they BELIEVE god exists and those who steadfastly will argue they KNOW for a fact he does.

The word translated in the bible as "faith" (belief) in the original language means "Strong trust".

In other words, if you say you believe, then you're saying that you know. Whether one does that in an arrogant manner is the only distinction. I can say that I know...but that doesn't mean I can make someone else "know" because it's up to each individual to decide where their "strong trust" is.

I have faith my van is going to get me home from Seattle in a month. Can't actually prove it until it happens, and there is always the possibility that I could be wrong, but I still have "strong trust" in that big diesel engine with 364,000 miles on it.

Btw, my Polish singer-friend, Mietek, has just released a fantastic jazz album in Poland that is doing quite well. When I heard it, the first thing I thought was, "I bet Mark would love this"

I can't post it publicly though...that would illegal because it's only out in Poland. Any ideas?

The word translated in the bible as "faith" (belief) in the original language means "Strong trust".

In other words, if you say you believe, then you're saying that you know.

I believe the Cards will be in the world series.
I believe Eli Manning will be in the Hall of Fame.
I believe I'll get 300K miles out of my Sienna minivan.
I believe I'll have a great time playing music at the truckstop this wkend w The 121's.
I believe I'll wake from my bed tomorrow.

I BELIEVE these things. I have "strong trust" in them..... but i most certainly do not KNOW them!

Btw, my Polish singer-friend, Mietek, has just released a fantastic jazz album in Poland that is doing quite well. When I heard it, the first thing I thought was, "I bet Mark would love this"

I can't post it publicly though...that would illegal because it's only out in Poland. Any ideas?

hmmm, i'd love to check him/her out. any other previous stuff i might investigate?


and now....i believe AND know if i don't get my butt out the door i'm gonna be late to the gig!

One thing I do know is this - nobody was ever argued into the kingdom. It doesn't work if you try to setup truth tables (logic diagrams) without adding some cosmos level rules to the game - and that is what the original dispute is about.

I remember a very nice lady remarking upon my Christianity one day, "Well you became a Christian so you wouldn't go to hell right?" Well, no. Pascal's Wager I suppose makes sense but it needs more foundation to hang it on.

I explained to her that when I didn't believe, I didn't believe in any of it and thus had no worries.

She was incredulous. Religion is taken very serious in the South and small town folks don't realize how it's changed in the cities. There are plenty of us who still provide an infrastructure but I ask myself on occasion, 'is this the great falling away spoken of scripture?'

Talbot

"Jews and Muslims fought together to defend Jerusalem against the invading Franks, but the crusaders entered the city on 15 July 1099. They proceeded to massacre the remaining Jewish and Muslim civilians and also pillaged or destroyed mosques or the city itself."

"After the fall of Acre in 1291, European support for the Crusades remained despite criticism by contemporaries such as Roger Bacon who felt the Crusades were ineffective since "those who survive, together with their children, are more and more embittered against the Christian faith."The historian Norman Davies summarized the case against the crusades as running counter to the Peace and Truce of God that Urban had promoted; instead they reinforced the connection between Western Christendom, feudalism, and militarism. The formation of military religious orders scandalized the Orthodox Christian Byzantine Greeks. Crusaders pillaged the countries they transited on their journey east[/b]. Rather than keeping their oath to restore lands to the Byzantines, they often kept the land for themselves. The Peoples' Crusade instigated the Rhineland massacres and the massacre of thousands of Jews. In the late 19th century this episode was used by Jewish historians to support Zionism.[32] The Fourth Crusade resulted in the sacking of Constantinople, effectively ending the chance of reuniting the Christian church by reconciling the East–West Schism and leading to the weakening and eventual fall of the Byzantine Empire to the Ottomans."
- Wikipedia

Yep, just like I said, except you left out the reason why the Crusades began in the first place

It was a response to Islamic terrorists...like the Barbary Coast Wars under President Thomas Jefferson. As your articles shows, the Christian leaders were not onboard with the military leaders, and it was a sad turn of events that eroded popular support when they started murdering Jews who were innocent.

What started out as a defensive war, turned into an excuse for plunder, as your article shows...


.

I believe the Cards will be in the world series.
I believe Eli Manning will be in the Hall of Fame.
I believe I'll get 300K miles out of my Sienna minivan.
I believe I'll have a great time playing music at the truckstop this wkend w The 121's.
I believe I'll wake from my bed tomorrow.

I BELIEVE these things. I have "strong trust" in them..... but i most certainly do not KNOW them!

fair enough....hope the gig went well

But if you think the Cards will be in the Series, you have more faith than I do.

Dayne ... have you been speaking with the Pope ...

my Spanish is very limited Vamp