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#241213 by pearlaurielle
Mon Mar 30, 2015 9:35 pm
After some arduous work on composition for songs that are never finished, I would like to consider the possibility of working with a producer to offer some creative , professional advice on how to finish my songs. I have a diverse selection of songs mostly written on guitar , and for years now I have not been able to complete a professional recording !

I am reaching out to any experienced producers and musician with a good ear and vision to get some advise on the creative potential of my songs and potentially collaborate.

If you feel you have a creative spark and have some experience of producing please share your thoughts on this. :idea:
#241221 by MikeTalbot
Mon Mar 30, 2015 10:37 pm
Here is a suggestion (based upon how I do my own work)

Lyrics (for me) usually come first - by getting them down fast and I can edit later to fix up any timing requirements and the music sort of suggests itself from the way the lyrics roll.

If you have 12 unfinished songs - junk 4 to 6 of them for now - throw them in your Spare Lyrics file and make sure you never waste any decent phrase even if you don't have a song for it.

The six you keep to work on right now should be the six that you like best and that are closest to completion.

Keep the six or so in your 'ready six' box. Whatever I'm working on - I try to keep six songs ready to go at all times - that have complete lyrics for and can play the music all the way through - usually from some project I'm working on.

Go through each of those six songs, and identify a) what they are about, b) what they lack. If the lyrics are complete and work - move on to the next. (save guitar for next pass). Once you have identified what a song lacks (lyrically) go to the spare lyrics file and ruthlessly pull out any phrases or lyrics that will fill your gap. Realistically you have then quite possibly completed the lyrics for half the six songs.

You've been messing around with lyrics now and picking up a head of steam. Write the lyrics needed to complete the other three. Even if not perfect, if they work to the melody and flow in the places they should that will do for now.

Forget the fancy guitar work - just figure out a chord chart from your lyrics and write it down. Then play just enough chord work that you can sing the lyrics - this also works as a second edit for timing.

If that is helpful let me know and I'll send you the second part - namely moving it ahead now that you 'own' it - put the sparkle on it and record it. I can get you to where you have a decent if rough recording that you can use for resume, or to teach others your tunes - and as a jump off point for a studio recording. There are threads all the place on Bandmix about the finer arts of recording to studio level and many of the folks here have done that (not me).

Good luck
Talbot
#241224 by t-Roy and The Smoking Section
Tue Mar 31, 2015 12:04 am
pearlaurielle wrote:After some arduous work on composition for songs that are never finished, I would like to consider the possibility of working with a producer to offer some creative , professional advice on how to finish my songs. I have a diverse selection of songs mostly written on guitar , and for years now I have not been able to complete a professional recording !

I am reaching out to any experienced producers and musician with a good ear and vision to get some advise on the creative potential of my songs and potentially collaborate.

If you feel you have a creative spark and have some experience of producing please share your thoughts on this. :idea:



Do your songs have at least 3 verses, a chorus, and a bridge?

What is it that you need help with? It sounds like you're a perfectionist who wants your songs to sound polished before they're finished.



Those that write, write and write some more, become writers.
Those that worry about ridicule never succeed, at anything.
…..Ben Steinlage
Last edited by t-Roy and The Smoking Section on Tue Mar 31, 2015 1:23 pm, edited 1 time in total.
#241244 by GuitarMikeB
Tue Mar 31, 2015 1:09 pm
Good tips from Mike T and good questions from Yod!

Everyone uses different techniques for songwriting. Some people write the music and melody first, then craft lyrics to fit - and these people are usually the most ardent that this is the ONLY way to write good songs.

Like Mike T, I write the lyrics first, then will go back and adjust them later if they don't quite fit the music.
For the last year, I've started using 'writing by committee' to get some better-crafted songs. What i mean is asking for feedback at early points in the process. This first started with a local songwriter circle, and now I also use the forums at musesmuse.com. Realize that everyone's suggestions and opinions are just that - their own. Some people's song ideas may not mesh with your own (same holds true for 'producers').
Listening to others' songs, reading their lyrics, and hearing what works and what doesn't also helps me in writing.
My usual method now (but not 100% of the time):
1) Lyrics - first draft. usually a hook or idea will come to me and in one session I'll do this. After I'm done, I'll go back over and amend some lines, move things around if they don't feel quite right.
2) Get feedback on this early lyric version. Others will often pick our things that as the writer I took for granted - like an idea is not clear, or the verb tense is jumbled up.
3) Lyrics go in a pile 'to be worked on' unless I'm feeling very inspired on it.
4) Playing/noddling on guitar or piano, I'll come up with a chord pattern and melody that sounds promising. I'll go to the lyric pile and scan through for a possible match. If something comes together at this point I'll write the chords down on the lyric sheet and then play it over and over as many as a dozen times to set it into short-term memory.
5) As soon as possible, I'll set up a single mic (and plug in the piano, if needed) and record a 1-take demo.
6) This is when I just used to continue adding parts and tracking the whole song - now I get feedback at this point from the songwriter circle meeting, or the online forum on the basic song structure and melody. Things I had never considered before get pointed out - like the chorus melody is too similar to the verse, or its too long overall, or there are too many words being crammed into each melody line.
7) At this point I'll take the feedback into consideration and keep what I like, and change what could make things better and then start to work on recording the full produciton version. Once done, I'll do a preliminary mix, then usually let it sit for a few days (or longer) to get fresh ears before re-mixing, then getting feedback on the mix.
8) At some point I decide the mix can't be tweaked any further, its as good as it gets - done!

2 years down the road I may listen to it again and think 'oh, I could have done ______ instead' or that I might have turned down the lead guitar in one part of another, but I don't go back to it if I had considered it finished.
On the other hand, there are songs which I had thought I had finished a year or two ago, but wasn't real happy with them - they didn't make the cut for either of my first 2 CDs. This past weekend, I just retracked two songs from scratch with some minor changes, based on recent feedback.
At some point you, the writer/player/singer, have to decide that 'the song is over'!
#241268 by MikeTalbot
Tue Mar 31, 2015 9:08 pm
I hope we aren't wasting our time here but I've been interested to see how you other guys work.

Ted I think summed up all the thing - roughly 'If you are gonna write - by golly get to writing!'

Talbot
#241290 by t-Roy and The Smoking Section
Wed Apr 01, 2015 7:27 am
For me it's about getting a good "idea" and then figuring out the best way to say it. Usually you work at it (not like roofing or construction, but work nonetheless)

Sometimes I have come up with music and make a melody fit (which is open to change or being forgotten until the song is recorded for posterity), and sometimes I'll make a melody out of the lyrics once I've figured out a rhythm for them.

There have been lots of times when a whole song came in like a flood of inspiration, and there have been many more times that a song evolved at every stage of putting it together, right down to being in the studio and just needing some lyrics to throw on so the recording musicians get the overall melody idea.

I think that I do my best writing when under some urgency (even artificial!) to finish quickly , but most often a song happens because I purposely make time for experimenting with every weird, crazy, and different idea in my little brain when I can get a few days to play around with song forms in the home studio.
#241446 by RhythmMan-2
Sat Apr 04, 2015 8:27 pm
When a song is the way you like it, it's finished.
Then it's time to write three more.
#244297 by t-Roy and The Smoking Section
Sun Jun 14, 2015 2:05 pm
Looks like the original poster disappeared before checking the answers....

I once had a friend who was constantly re-writing every song he ever wrote. He's still re-doing the songs we played in high school and I've recorded about 20 albums since then.

I've never finished an album that was exactly like I wanted it, but there comes a time in every journey when you're "there" and you have to move on. Can't do that if you keep going back to start over.

If you're not able to finish because the production quality isn't up to snuff, then by all means get a Producer and go into a pro studio. If it's song structure that you keep changing after it's recorded, then I'd say play these songs live until you know exactly how you want them.

Even then, the recording process will bring out things you maybe didn't notice before. If it isn't detrimental error, then make a decision and stick with it...even if you have to flip a coin. The idea behind a song is what makes it a good song. A different note in the background voices, or an extra chorus at the end ain't gonna make a huge difference if the idea is a good one.
#244398 by GuitarMikeB
Tue Jun 16, 2015 12:53 pm
I do what ted suggests for some songs - play them live while I'm still working on the recordings. Live, you can add another chorus at the end, or a lead section, or repeat a bridge, but in a recording you want it to be tight and not too repetitive - unless it IS an album of guitar soloing, don't do a solo in every song, whereas live a solo in each song is usually a good thing.
Last edited by GuitarMikeB on Wed Jun 17, 2015 12:43 pm, edited 1 time in total.
#244403 by schmedidiah
Tue Jun 16, 2015 1:55 pm
Autotuned vocals. BOOM! Done. Let's go to the VIP champagne room and we'll do it all over again tomorrow. :lol:
#244406 by Planetguy
Tue Jun 16, 2015 2:21 pm
it's apples and fishcakes, i know.... but playing in Planet Jazz we're always keeping ourselves amused by dressing up the tunes we play (originals and standards) in new and different clothes....

"hey, let's try 'Blue Monk' w a second line New Orleans feel"

"let's do 'Blue Bossa' as 'Blue Reggae' tonight."

"let's play this 4/4 tune in 6/8".

besides being fun, it's a great exercise for the ol' brain box!
#244407 by t-Roy and The Smoking Section
Tue Jun 16, 2015 2:34 pm
Planetguy wrote:it's apples and fishcakes, i know.... but playing in Planet Jazz we're always keeping ourselves amused by dressing up the tunes we play (originals and standards) in new and different clothes....

"hey, let's try 'Blue Monk' w a second line New Orleans feel"

"let's do 'Blue Bossa' as 'Blue Reggae' tonight."

"let's play this 4/4 tune in 6/8".

besides being fun, it's a great exercise for the ol' brain box!




That reminds of a saying, "You can't break the rules until you know them"

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