General Music Chat

Amateurs are/have ruined the music business. They will play anywhere anytime for nothing.
Add in the amateur club owners and what do you have?!
When a club owner asks you to play for free, ask him if HE is working for free that night?
Are the bartenders?
Do electricians and plumbers come there and work for him free of charge?


Pros, if you catch amateurs playing a club for free, give them the sh*t that they deserve. A good mouthful of it.
I think it's time to start boycotting clubs that don't pay the talent and leave them with nothing but the amateurs that that feed on... let's see how long their patrons put up with that!

Enough o this sh*t!

Salute!

There are more than a few (empty) clubs around here that will offer a 'try out' night for the band - a weeknight - and the only income will be from what comes in at the door. There's also many 'promoters' doing deals wiht clubs/bars where they book 3 or 4 bands (one set each) and each band must buy (or sell) a minimum number of tickets , for example 20 tickets @ $10 each, and they get to keep half the money from the tickets they sell (essentially paying $100 to play, thne any money taken in after selling 10 tickets is the 'pay') Most often these are young (under 25) bands with simplistic guitar-bass-drums music.

BTW, ranting here won't do much, most of these 'bands' are illiterate!

There are also 'coffee house' type gigs - literal coffee shops that will let an acoustic act come in and play for tips (and any CD/merch sales) - basically these can be a semi-paid rehearsal for the act. A duo I know played one last Saturday with no equipment other than their guitars, but I didn't even see a tip bucket, so it was no more than a practice for them where they could also promote an upcoming gig or two.

BTW, ranting here won't do much, most of these 'bands' are illiterate!

sadly this is getting to be an old story and more and more commonplace.

a boycott from a few musicians bugged by this policy from clubowners ain't gonna hurt them in the pocketbook enough to change policy.

and sadly the attitude i've come across too often (and articulated to me BY the club owner/booker/mgr) is that the "quality" of the band ain't all that important.

as long as the band has a bunch of frat buddies coming in and spending $....the quality of the music is of little importance.

as much as it wrankles me (and it does)...i can see it from both the club's side and the side of the musicians who are willing to play for chump change, beer, or free.

1. why should the club pay good money for a band if they can get one for free? quality? unless the free group really, REALLY sucks...not an issue.

2. you have a lot of amateur musicians out there (solo and groups) who just like pros....want to get out there in front of an audience. maybe they're not good enough to command money...or maybe they're doing it just to play. they're just thrilled to get out of their basement or garage and play inf front of people.
either they don't know the damage they're doing to pro "working musicians" or they don't care. now, i don't condone them doing that...but i can see it thru their eyes.

no matter how ya cut it.....it does suck and it makes it harder and harder to get a fair wage or even get the gig period.

"when club owners can get a single act for the night for free, why would they pay a pro"
Many of the current club owners live on this platform nowadays.
I used to produce concerts and promote for clubs. I would use start up bands for openers; they had to be a decent act, and they got paid even if it was only $50.
I didn't hire amateur bands that hacked their way through a 30 minute set... that's where rehearsal/parties and benefit concerts come in for amateurs. I have seen some atrocious acts headlining in clubs lately.
It IS in my opinion ruining the local music venues.

I'm not directing this soley toward the amateurs. It's about the pro/semi pro bands that whore themselves out as well. Of course amateur bands want to hit the stage... but when was that not the case?!
I would love to fly a plane, but do i get to just because I want it? You have to EARN the right to that stage. A stage is a professional environment, not a host for desires.
Club owners are making money from talent. So should the talent!

How many times do we have to talk over this on here?

LOL!

You are in business. If someone will supply something of equal value to the club owner for free then you got beat.

How to overcome this, build a following, its plain and simple, if you cant bring a crowd of your own then no matter how good you are, you are worth no more to the club than the free bands.

Hayden, I listened to your tracks on FB, they sound good. In the end is there a market for what you are doing? I dont know the answer.

Im getting back into the loop of active players in my area, you know the guys that are actually trying to make a living playing music. Most of them play in different groups, on weekends, most have a band situation, 3-4-5 members, then during the week what Im seeing is more guys doing single and duo gigs.

Tonight Im playing with a couple of these guys, Im not asking for any money, they are pros and depend on the money, so me and a couple of other guys are playing with them cause we want to, From my side of things they play some different genre material than what Im ussually playing, so I think musically its good for me to play with people that are better than myself. Plus thru them I am networking in case a situation opens up that I might be interested in.

You can whine all you want, but I think you would be better trying to build a fan base that will support you.

Its business, plain and simple

Good points JW... but what does a touring out of town band do?
Where do you get to see touring bands you've never heard of, yet are somewhat assured that they will be a "quality act?
I think spending countless hours/years fine tuning your act should be sufficient to getting out and touring... not spending even more additional hours being a "club promoter"
That is THEIR job, not the talents!!!

Again, there are many opportunities for amateurs to get playing time in front of a crowd. I just don't think it should be in the realm of the professionals.

P.S. I'm not whining. I'm BITCHING lol

... and thanks for the review!

Yep, I turn it around: Be in demand and venues will gladly pay you instead of the freebie dudes. We don't play many bars these days cause I don't like the hours but when we did, and we could pack the joint with drinking dancing fans, we had no trouble getting paid. If you can put $3000 in their cash register for the night so they can pay rent, servers, electricity, insurance, booze etc. you are a pretty good investment for the venue and easily worth $500-$800. If you can't get their cash register to ring, why would they hire you? No return on investment so it's just money down the rat hole for them.

Be the solution, attract a crowd and then the freebie up and comers won't bother you so much. Those guys have always been around as long as I have been gigging and still, the best bands who fill the joint always get paid.

"You have to EARN the right to that stage. A stage is a professional environment, not a host for desires. "


well, that's a noble thought. but, ah...if only it was the reality! sadly it's not. and that's why we're having this conversation.

Tonight Im playing with a couple of these guys, Im not asking for any money, they are pros and depend on the money, so me and a couple of other guys are playing with them cause we want to, From my side of things they play some different genre material than what Im ussually playing, so I think musically its good for me to play with people that are better than myself. Plus thru them I am networking in case a situation opens up that I might be interested in.

The sensible approach. to success.

"but what does a touring out of town band do?
Where do you get to see touring bands you've never heard of, yet are somewhat assured that they will be a "quality act? "

I go here
http://www.st94.com/home/

Excellent national bands and great regional bands
Next show Im seeing there is
http://www.st94.com/store/Junior-Brown- ... .1.23.aspx

Semi-local band I have been following got the opening slot .....
I like their formula at this place and would love to get a gig there ...
If my band had the chance to open this show but it meant not gettting paid I would still do it as it would be in our best interests as a band to do it .... great venue /stage/ .... get some local press....


Blaming others is just a cop out - in the end its up to you to meet your own goals.

Hayden, Im near Memphis and lots of touring bands come thru town, there are 5-6 places that cater to them, how much they make?? I couldnt tell you.

You have to make your own success

Here's my take . . . don't blame the club, blame the patrons.

It would take very little of "if you can't get good musicians in here we're not coming back" to make the difference.

OH but here's the fly in ointment.
Majority of the patrons are there for the alcohol and whores, not to be music connoisseurs.

Back to square one EH.

Here's my take . . . don't blame the club, blame the patrons.

It would take very little of "if you can't get good musicians in here we're not coming back" to make the difference.

OH but here's the fly in ointment.
Majority of the patrons are there for the alcohol and whores, not to be music connoisseurs.

Back to square one EH.

bingo.

i agree w ya george. all the vets on here who've been doing this for awhile surely notice how attitudes of patrons towards live music have changed over the years...and not for the better.

Unfortunately, too true. No music happening, they just turn to the TVs for whatever 'sport of the day' is being shown.