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#21323 by TheCaptain
Sat Feb 09, 2008 3:19 pm
1) musically?
well, I've been a bit of a slacker actually..
though the wife has been in studio to do piano/vox for someones CD..man.. totally unfair!

2) I'm proud to have started what seems to be the longest running "religious -oriented " thread, without folks ripping each others innards out.

Hey, let's leave this one where it is while we're all friends!
:)
peace to all..
Rich
ps. to be fair to myself, we're in the process of trying to sell our house & move 45 minutes west ish, so it's partly to blame for the slackedness..
:)

#21328 by gbheil
Sat Feb 09, 2008 4:00 pm
Wow, I'm (easly) impressed, a stimulating topic and conversation that dont require kevlar panties.
Craig: I am going to have to do more reading on the subject of "tongues" I seem to be a little behind on that subject.
Irminsul & GA perhaps our linkage at the beginning of time before the fall of the tower of babble, when I believe we were devided into races and our common languge was lost. Could this be the origin of the unknown language of which you refer?
And it has been my experience that in a class setting the Prof sets himself up as petty dictator, and little or no true "discussion" occures.an example would how many "Historeans" have trie to tell me the American Civil War was principly about slavery. It was not, It was economics as are all wars. uh oh Break out the kevlar again.

#21329 by HowlinJ
Sat Feb 09, 2008 4:04 pm
PiperRich,
Years ago,my wife Cin and my three sons (wee tots at the time) drove our old Ford P100 step van from the Poconos (northeastern P.A.), to visit friends near Mexico, Maine (near Rumford,if I recall correctly). Beautiful country, but a bit on the chilly side. On the way, we passed "Sugerloaf Mountain", thought we made a miss-turn and ended up in "Reo" for a second! I don't recall anyone playin' the pipes in Maine, but we did enjoy good company, and quite a few "brewskeys".
There was a time when Cin played the bass in bands with me. She has since retired from the music game, but our son Ry has stepped in to take over the bass job. Best wishes to you and yours, and good luck on the new move. When you get settled in, I would like to hear some more Pipe playing, if you can find the time. Cheers,
John

#21339 by Guitaranatomy
Sat Feb 09, 2008 4:37 pm
Well, I am familiar with that story, about the Tower of Babble. I do not recall it fully though, so I will need to do some research on that (If I remember to, lol).

I think there are languages that have been lost with time, perhaps ancient dialects that are those of the God's. The thing that mystifies me is the end of the world facts. Now what I am talking about is Nostradamus, his "Lost Book." I saw the special on it on the History Channel, I wish I could see it again, it was great. It was very fascinating and discussed how his predictions in that "Lost Book" state the end of the world would basically be around 2012 (When the stars would align towards the 13 Zodiac symbol, 13 being evil, like Friday the 13). This basically happens like once every 2000-3000 years I believe. I do not remember all of the facts to it, but it is at the center of the Milky Way Galaxy is all I know. So that is predicted to be when the world will end, 2012. But the part that befuddled me was that the Mayan calendar also breaks off at 2012. It is like history is trying to tell us something about our future. So tell me, how would another places predictions (That no one knew about in that time) end up on the other side of the world? So, basically, how did the Mayan's see it and then he saw it... Something very enigmatical about that.

It is as if we can search history to find out our destiny...

It was a great show, I recommend anyone to watching it.

Peace out, GuitarAnatomy.

#21348 by gbheil
Sat Feb 09, 2008 5:47 pm
If I remember correctly the Myan calender denoted a "change" not the "end" . And thier having been wiped out by a climate change coupled with abuse of natural resoure in the area of highest population concentration way before 2012 despite the inherant accuracy of their calender, They were just falable humans too. And I saw that special on the lost book of the Nos man. It was followed the next day by another special that seemingly debunked all just as convincingly. I know you guys know already I'm a Christian, so I dont think anyone can predict the end of time. I also feel that the universe is too mathamaticly compex to predict as well. I,m just ROCKIN along for the ride.

#21352 by HowlinJ
Sat Feb 09, 2008 6:18 pm
George'
Good to hear a man of faith concurring with my own positivist philosophy. God does indeed "Play dice", contrary to Dr. Einstein's famous statement. The universe is complex, as noted by the work of Dr. Gell-Mann. Simplicity begets complexity is the thesis of Steven Wolfram's "The New Science", (check it out). Heisenberg's "uncertainty principle" is at the core of quantum mechanics, and that's a truth in evidence by the "miracle" of lasers, cell phones, and our beloved computers.
John

#21361 by Craig Maxim
Sat Feb 09, 2008 8:44 pm
Tower of Babel...


The Bible makes no statement on the origin of variations in race, only the division of languages. The languages were confused. It says nothing about race.

But...

The flood story as well as the "confusion" of languages, I believe are myth stories handed down and included in various religious texts, since they were common "understandings" of the day. This is born out by texts like the Epic of Gilgamesh, which, if memory serves, precedes the bible, and it's version of Noah. Some myths however are, loosely fact based. And I believe there is some scientific evidence of an ancient major flood, but I do not recall if this was after or before modern man. If after, maybe it is more than myth. If before, then fossilized fish found in mountain tops where there are no large bodies of water, would have been "evidence" to ancient people that the earth would have been covered in water, as they would not have knowledge of continental shelf shifts, and mountains rising and falling over eons of time.

Language clearly developed over time though, as humans migrated out of Africa into other parts of the world. It is merely a primitive man's way of explaining why languages would be different throughout the world.

Similarly, there have never been such things as dragons, which the bible also mentions, but I imagine that a fossilized pterodactyl along with other dinosaurs could easily fit the bill for them.

In combining and assembling a history of the world, it would have been natural for ancient biblical writers to include commonly accepted tales or myths into the greater spiritual work of such texts.

#21362 by Irminsul
Sat Feb 09, 2008 8:49 pm
Back to the topic of tongues:

This is one of the reasons I am such a Lisa Gerrard fan (she was the lead singer for Dead Can Dance). Almost all of the songs she did were not in a known language - they were spontaneous verbalisms that sprang from her, and according to her, they are her particular 'spirit language'. What the nature of it is, it is beautiful, it is inspiring, it is powerful.

There is something to it.

#21373 by TheCaptain
Sat Feb 09, 2008 10:31 pm
Howlin, I'm scheduled to be in the Poconos in July!
Lead guitar for a Vineyard East Regional conference..

Maine is indeed quite lovely..the coast is unbeatable..in MHO

If it's warm you like, try July/August.yuch...90%humidity at times...
great for acoustic pianos...not

#21377 by Craig Maxim
Sat Feb 09, 2008 11:02 pm
Irminsul wrote:Back to the topic of tongues:

This is one of the reasons I am such a Lisa Gerrard fan (she was the lead singer for Dead Can Dance). Almost all of the songs she did were not in a known language - they were spontaneous verbalisms that sprang from her, and according to her, they are her particular 'spirit language'. What the nature of it is, it is beautiful, it is inspiring, it is powerful.

There is something to it.



You guys are making me want to check her out!

Language is often musical in intonation and inflections used to express emotion, and conceivably from earliest times, I imagine that gutteral emotional noises were used as the earliest form of language. Maybe we respond to things like that because it harkens back to our more primitive origins? Just speculating.

#21397 by Irminsul
Sun Feb 10, 2008 6:16 am
Craig Maxim wrote:

You guys are making me want to check her out!

Language is often musical in intonation and inflections used to express emotion, and conceivably from earliest times, I imagine that gutteral emotional noises were used as the earliest form of language. Maybe we respond to things like that because it harkens back to our more primitive origins? Just speculating.


Just my view, but I don't think that's what it is...she is tapping into something definitely of the "higher" spiritual mind. And it's so individual. I watched an interview with her and she said anybody could do this, but it would sound different from person to person.

#21405 by Craig Maxim
Sun Feb 10, 2008 8:57 am
Irminsul wrote:
Craig Maxim wrote:

You guys are making me want to check her out!

Language is often musical in intonation and inflections used to express emotion, and conceivably from earliest times, I imagine that gutteral emotional noises were used as the earliest form of language. Maybe we respond to things like that because it harkens back to our more primitive origins? Just speculating.


Just my view, but I don't think that's what it is...she is tapping into something definitely of the "higher" spiritual mind. And it's so individual. I watched an interview with her and she said anybody could do this, but it would sound different from person to person.



Ok, I checked some videos of her on YouTube.

Languages are merely tools to communicate. Some languages express ideas better, or more fully than other languages, but it wouldn't impact you if you didn't understand the language. As this is a made-up language, possibly rooted in her travels growing up, because of her parents she was exposed to Greek, Turkish, Italian, Irish and Arab (so says Wikipedia anyway). That would have exposed her to diverse languages and cultures, and she likely found all the various dialects enthralling.

Without her mesmerizing voice, the affect would disappear. If the language were holy, or endowed with some special power, then when spoken, it would still retain some of that power. I think this would not be the case.

The value, I think, of singing in a unique language is several things:

1) While words convey messages, which can be important, they can also be distracting, as people sometimes "think" too much on the message, or get caught up in the words. The absence of this allows her to focus solely on emotion and tonal qualities, and bypasses conscious messages altogether. You can't "contemplate" the message of her music, you can only "feel" it. It makes it more emotionally captivating, because you go straight to "feeling" - straight to emotion.

2) Not being restricted by language itself, she can formulate "words", that fit the melody, that flow as perfectly as she wants. The words then, become melodic in themselves, and become one with the melody. Words are restrictive, sounds aren't.

I wish I could remember who it was, or whether it was an actress or a singer. I'm think it was an actress. There was, in the past, a famous foreign actress, and at a party once, showing that she was such a good actress, that you could feel the emotions and "understand" even without knowing the words. She recited a monologue, acting it out. It brought everyone in the room to tears. When asked what she had recited, she replied that it was the alphabet of her language.

She brought them to tears with the alphabet. Of course, the words were unimportant. She conveyed the emotion so movingly, that the words were meaningless. It didn't matter what they were.

I think this is something similar, but more powerful because it is carried on a melody, which increases the emotional and sensory level.

In the sense that it may be spiritual. I think that because she is not bound by words, it may be allowing her to go deeper within herself, giving it a spiritual quality. But the melodies help too, of course, because they are like gregorian chants, almost hypnotic. The combination of all these things, makes for a powerful experience. I am quite sure, that YouTube, cannot possible begin to capture the experience of being there live. I bet the effect is ten fold.

#21421 by HowlinJ
Sun Feb 10, 2008 3:02 pm
Good points Craig,
I cite the latest song on your profile "Come", as an example of what might be regarded as desirable qualities of a song performance. So far I've only given it one listen. What I recall about it is not the "lyrics" (although they struck me as being well written), but rather the "sound" of the song itself and the" emotion" in the voice.
John

#21454 by Irminsul
Sun Feb 10, 2008 8:32 pm
You had some good stuff in their, Craig, but I have to disagree with you on language being intended as "merely communication" on a verbal level. It is far more than that. It is musical! I have never found a separation between language and music, in my experience. Listen to the the tone and cadance of Chinese. Or the lilt of Arabic or Navajo. The vowel-ishness and melodic fluidity of Hawaiian.

There is much more going on here that just an exchange of words with meanings attached.

#21502 by Craig Maxim
Mon Feb 11, 2008 10:51 am
Irminsul wrote:

I have to disagree with you on language being intended as "merely communication" on a verbal level. It is far more than that. It is musical!



Hey wait a minute!

You yourself quoted me above, where I wrote that language was musical!!! Go look!

LOL - What's up with that?

ooops.... now I see where the confusion is.

I also wrote....

"LANGUAGES are merely tools to communicate"

In that sentence, "languages" was supposed to be "words" I was getting ahead of myself.

"Words are merely tools to communicate"

The difference is subtle, but important. Established words, are in essence representative of specific things. When people have disputed the importance of "symbolism" to me, I always point out that words are symbols, that we use to represent other things and is the basis of most of our communication. Without words, or sign language (also symbolic) same with hand gestures or written text, all symbolism. Without those things, normal communication would be virtually non-existent, then I ask them... "So, remind me again how UN-important symbolism is? Cause you are able to TELL me it is unimportant, only through using it!" LOL

So, words are created as a communications tool, but we absolutely speak them using tonal inflections to emphasize them, and in some languages, as you mentioned, Chinese being one, it is not merely the word, but the tonal inflection that determines the meaning of some of the words. Some words are in principle the same exact word, but depending on whether your voice went up or down in pitch as you spoke the word, you could be saying "Dog" or "House".

So, Cantonese for example, is a language that is almost SUNG, as much as it is spoken. I always found that fascinating. 20 years ago, I had a friend who had been an opera singer at Beijing Hall in China, and before she told me that, I don't think I was aware that the actual pitch, literally could change the word's meaning into another word.

I also learned from her that I ate "baby food" for breakfast. We call it cereal here. LOL

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