General Music Chat

Good Luck with it Paper, but there is reality and pipe dreams, and I think you need to get a dose of reality of beating the streets trying to get a few gigs and see what kind of money you can drum up. If you figure out a better way to skin the cat then let others know something so they can maybe do it also.

Im way more open about the money you can expect, because Ive been there and done that. The gigs Ive done thru the years, like festivals, or multi group lineups that a promotor put together, we in fact saw little or no money.

If I had dedicated my life to being a pro musician then Im sure I would be doing that, but I know that for my life I needed a more secure money input. I know people that had the dream going at one point or another, guess what? some of them are back playing in the same dives that I play.

Im not trying to burst your bubble, but until you have really gotten out and tryed getting gigs, and seeing what kind of money you can make, then how can you assume anything?

On another note, I was asked a few monthes ago to join a cover band that caters to weddings and coporate events. I know from a booking agency that this outfit, makes a minimum of $2000 a night to do what they do, but it just didnt look like i would enjoy playing the songs they do. To me that would have been selling out, and I chose not to do it, and then on top of that they only offered my $150 a night to be a part of it. So in the end moneywise I was in the same place I am now.

I wish anyone luck with thier musical dreams, I share what I have been thru, how much money can be expected, if you are expecting $1200 a night, then please tell me so I can do it too.

There are other musicians here that play out more than I do, Haley, Jimmy, Prevost, maybe those guys can share what kind of "REAL MONEY" they are making, so you dont waste you time thinking you are going to get rich playing music at some point. For most of us there are a lot easier ways to make a living than music.

The bass player in my mid-80s band wanted to turn us into a wedding band (we played one wedding - last minute booking - one time) because of the money. Back then it was $700-$900 for our 'classic rock' style, and there were plenty of weddings who wanted this type of music.
But I had no desire to do weddings and the 'old standards' that were needed, i was into writing music at the time and we were putting my originals into our set list, I knew this would disappear if we became a wedding band.

PD - the only bands in this area getting $1200+ in this area ARE wedding bands or the ones playing the upscale venues that can charge more than $10-15 to get in. Any standard bars/clubs charging $10 cover are those that book 3 or 4 bands a night to play (and not pay them much of anything) - 'popular' places that pack the place every Friday/Saturday no matter what bands play.

ok...i have zero problem w this club owner, his expectations, or the way he spelled them out in his "letter".

first off, in my book he gets points for taking the time to articulate (and do it well) what he needs and expects from bands working at his place.

secondly, as he points out HE IS RUNNING A BUSINESS. how can you argue that point? if he can't get customers in or keep customers there buying booze.....his BUSINESS is going to fail. he even says he appreciates good music and musicianship, but if the crowds are more responsive (showing up, staying, spending $) for a lesser band...that's gotta be the way he goes.

sad, but it makes total sense from a BUSINESS point of view, no?

i totally get that....because he's not in a position to be a "patron of the arts"....instead, say it w me now...HE IS RUNNING A BUSINESS.

thirdly, since he's taken the time to clearly communicate and spell out what he need...there can be no confusion, or hard feelings later. if you don't like to play the kind of music he wants in his place or you don't think it's your job to help him sell booze...don't play there. simple as that.

but from what i can tell...he IS paying bands to "work" there. and not playing that shitty game of "hiring" three or four bands and expecting them to play for the door and split it among all the bands. now that, THAT is truly an exploitive prct in my book.

if you don't want to "work" and instead simply "play".... your originals or obscure tunes that no one recognizes...no matter how good they are......well, you're going to have a very difficult time finding a club, bar, or restaurant that's gonna hire you at an agreed upon set price that's more than just chump change. likely you'll be playing for the door.

why? because most customers don't give a flying leap about ANY live music these days. i've been playing out regularly for around 35 yrs and the general public's apathy towards live music continues to grow and grow.

this is precisely why there are less and less places that are willing to go through the headaches of offering live music at their place.

in my neck of the woods....the bar gigs i play are usually $100 -150 a man. sometimes i play gigs for more (private parties, corp events, etc) and sometimes less if i think it's gonna be a fun gig.

as i've gotten older and become more financially (if not mentally) stable....the money has become less important to me when deciding whether or not to take a gig. my big thing is i have a strong aversion to being taken advantage of.....

...and by that i mean, i'll work for $50 (or sometimes even the door) somewhere in a small club on a midweek night when i know the bar owner isn't making a fortune. i will NOT work for chump at a place where i know they ARE making a lot of money and have decided the musicians don't need to be fairly compensated.

one of my favorite gigs is playing bluegrass w some friends at a farmers market. we put out a tip jar and the vendors come up and give us produce. i usually make enough to cover my gas, go home w some fresh produce and baked goods and leave knowing that the folks who came over and hung out listening to the band were doing so because they were enjoying the music.

Ok So there is definately a competitive environment, which IMHO is great and as it should be. Thus A musician might be compelled to really work up the chops, on the hope that he can convince a reputable venue to take him on.

sadly, that thinking is built on the premise that good music, good musicianship is the key to success. look (listen) around....are the most successful musicians the ones w the most talent????

the competition that i see is more and more bands (usually youngsters who are dying to get out of the prct room and go play "shows").....who are willing to play for beans, share the door w 3 or 4 bands, or play for free because they are so desperate to play out.

if you're a club owner, now who are YOU gonna hire.....my band w very talented pros that you're gonna have to pay some decent money, or would you "hire" 4 bands at no cost/risk to you and each band will hopefully bring their friends and family to see their "show"???

So, what I'm saying, is that a professional band should absolutely not do business with dives and dumps that don't even make an effort to work with a band

well i agree, grant but our definitions of "working w the band" are clearly different. i see the guy that wrote that letter AS someone working w the bands he hires. and just like any "job" you might not like his terms....and therefore you can and should seek "employment" elsewhere.

what he offers is a paycheck, a place to perform, maybe some free drinks and/or dinner for the band and in return he expects you to help him make some money.

not saying it's a place i'd work at if i had to regularly perform Gimme 3 Steps, Mustang Sally, and Margaritaville but i can see it from his end and don't hate him or fault him for the way things are.

Ok So there is definately a competitive environment, which IMHO is great and as it should be. Thus A musician might be compelled to really work up the chops, on the hope that he can convince a reputable venue to take him on.

sadly, that thinking is built on the premise that good music, good musicianship is the key to success. look (listen) around....are the most successful musicians the ones w the most talent????

the competition that i see is more and more bands (usually youngsters who are dying to get out of the prct room and go play "shows").....who are willing to play for beans, share the door w 3 or 4 bands, or play for free because they are so desperate to play out.

if you're a club owner, now who are YOU gonna hire.....my band w very talented pros that you're gonna have to pay some decent money, or would you "hire" 4 bands at no cost/risk to you and each band will hopefully bring their friends and family to see their "show"???

So, what I'm saying, is that a professional band should absolutely not do business with dives and dumps that don't even make an effort to work with a band

well i agree, grant but our definitions of "working w the band" are clearly different. i see the guy that wrote that letter AS someone working w the bands he hires. and just like any "job" you might not like his terms....and therefore you can and should seek "employment" elsewhere.

what he offers is a paycheck, a place to perform, maybe some free drinks and/or dinner for the band and in return he expects you to help him make some money.

not saying it's a place i'd work at if i had to regularly perform Gimme 3 Steps, Mustang Sally, and Margaritaville but i can see it from his end and don't hate him or fault him for the way things are.

Hey Mark, I dont personally hold it against the guy who wrote that letter, and if anybody actually reads my posts, i'm not saying anything against the standard work ethic of performing. My entire argument addresses the current 'box' or paradigm that son many musicians seem comfortable with, and which might explain why they are always broke (or at least not getting paid on par )

JW, in lieu of performing with a guitar, I use to do a crap load of theater... In one case, I did up to three shows a day 7 days a week (albeit short lived season)... I never got paid more than about 15 bucks a day...It was strictly dependant on the door and our 'band' consisted of a full cast and crew (more than 5 people). So, the money was distributed thinly... But the point was, the theater made some effort to not dip into our work costs by using some lame excuse like "were got a business to run" Of course its business. (When isnt it?)
(Jeff, if you are reading this, we competed directly with the Alley Theater (The flagship of all theaters in Houston) ...Aint that a hoot? They paid their actors much better)

Folks, I'm not suggesting its easy to demand better conditions... I'm just saying that the arguments from many bar owners don't fly with me personally. They are indeed about profit and we all know they don't give a crapola if you fail or not... In fact, i agree that they dont owe a musican sheeeeit. Well Guess what. I dont owe them sheeeit and they can kiss my ass

Smebody will be willing to pay for tthe privialge of musical leverage in their bar. If not , well fuk em, who needs em anyhow Right?

Folks, I'm not suggesting its easy to demand better conditions... I'm just saying that the arguments from many bar owners don't fly with me personally. They are indeed about profit and we all know they don't give a crapola if you fail or not... In fact, i agree that they dont owe a musican sheeeeit. Well Guess what. I dont owe them sheeeit and they can kiss my ass Smile

And therein lies the reason that it isn't you doing the hiring instead of them.

it's all about "hand". as long as the club owners have "hand"...they pretty much get to dictate the terms. take it or leave it.

grant, the acting troupe analogy is on point in that the venue that allowed you to do as you wished didn't do it at their expense. if instead they had to pay everyone in your troupe $100-150 per gig my guess is they would have been MUCH more hands on re. what they expected in return.

and it's the same in the music biz.....play for the door (w 3 0r 4 other bands splitting the $) and pretty much do whatever you like.

play somewhere where you expect $100-150 per....well, you're not gonna be given the same lee-way.

yeah, it sucks. but that's how it is. club owners have "hand".....musicians don't.

Grant I wish you luck, but taking Planets analogy, if you bite the hand that feeds you, you wont get fed too often.

To me, you and the BLue Poet Souls should be trying to get on some sort of festival type gigs, since you dont want to do what it takes to work in a bar.

Your theatre side doesnt help me, in my area most theatres are funded thru the local government and the actors pretty much work for free, I played guitar for a couple of productions just for the heck of it. Didnt make anything from that, but I did enjoy it.