General Music Chat

This is a potentially long drawn out thread. Shoot, this post is long! But as you mentioned we are called.

Like the word love is translated from 4 words.
1 Storge – affection
2 Philia – friendship (brotherly)
3 Eros – romance (erotic)
4 Agape – unconditional love (God love)

Likewise the word wine is translated from 3 words.
1 Fermented grape juice as we would expect.
2 Unfermented grape juice
3 And even grapes still on the vine!

I mention that for 2 reasons.
1 Sometimes we can tell from context which kind is mentioned
2 We get the same health benefits (for the bible mentioned stomach) from grape juice. - resveratol.

Bars exist for a few reasons
1 social interaction
2 entertainment - social/music
3 to catch a buzz
4 to hook up

The music in a bar setting is often 3rd or 4th in importance to the people there. When I began playing in coffee shops I was pleasantly surprised to find that the music was THE attraction!

In regards to I Tim 5:23 Drink no longer water, but use a little wine for thy stomach's sake and thine often infirmities

Whether Paul was talking about fermented or unfermented grape juice is unclear. What is clear is that he was not encouraging social drinking. He was saying it was okay as medicine.

Another verse people like to use to support casual drinking is
Eph 5:18 And be not drunk with wine, wherein is excess; but be filled with the Spirit;

The key word there is wherein. It doesn't mean "to the point of". It means "in this". So...

And be not drunk with wine, in this is excess; but be filled with the Spirit;

So being drunk is excess. So how drunk is the question. Well, if you have a drink how drunk are you? Well just isolate the last three words of that sentence. "Drunk are you". You are in that case one drink drunk. It is measurable. One drink affects, speech, thoughts, even handwriting. You are one drink drunk. You are drunk.

Following that idea out we are, according to many passages, to "flee" temptations. (1 Corinthians 6:18; 10:14; 1 Timothy 6:11; 2 Timothy 2:22)
Hanging out in a bar is not just tempting for someone with an addiction issue. It is tempting for many people for many reasons. Having just one drink lowers inhibitions, and tempts us by default to have "just one more". For men the combination of lowered inhibitions and the way women dress to attract a man is dangerous.

There are tons of warnings against alcohol like...
Proverbs 20:1 Wine is a mocker and beer a brawler; whoever is led astray by them is not wise.

That verse alone is enough for me to know it's foolish to even play with it. It's easy to be fooled by it. It influences people to rationalize why it's okay and harmless. And according to that verse alone you aren't wise if you let that happen.

To be blunt, people go to bars to sin.

I Thess 5:22 Abstain from all appearance of evil.

I don't want to be seen in a bar either. Because it appears that I am there to do what people do at a bar, party.

Rom 14:13 Let us not therefore judge one another any more: but judge this rather, that no man put a stumblingblock or an occasion to fall in his brother's way.

For me the bottom line is. It's a temptation, a potential stumbling block, unnecessary, expensive, and poor stewardship of time, money, and health.

For those reasons it's a no-brainer. I don't touch it.

The Jewish people did not offer "grape juice " at weddings.
That is preposterous ( no offense intended Paul, just my perspective )
1 ) It was never straight grape juice but mixed with water at the pressing thus "new wine" was that which has not completed the fermentation process.

The fermentation process ( given to us by our Lord God ) was designed to utilize yeast to kill harmful bacteria, because in the "Fall of Man " corruption set in, making much of the earths waters contaminated and lethal to consumption. And we require "drink" to survive.

That said: I applaud Paul's conviction.

I, though I may consume a "drink" with my meal, or a beer with my family as we relax in the afternoon.
Avoid drunkenness, and those whom would willfully be so.
Partly to avoid "the appearance of evil" as Paul so eloquently stated.
But also because my sinful nature has a zero tolerance for " bullshit".
I am always armed.
Therefor for me, to be around drunken fools, ( or be one myself ) is a recipe for disaster.

Also: It is my opinion that to equate "sin" with the inanimate, be it alcohol, weapons, ETC, misses the big point.
Man is sinful, not the inanimate objects that surround us. To accept otherwise is to deffer our responsibility, not accept it.

Too many times I have heard my Christian brothers say they "fell" into sin because of substance abuse.

They fell alright, and they did so of their own accord, dragging the inanimate substance into the picture is just an excuse.
And God is no respecter of our excuses.

I too applaud Paul's choice to put family first and avoid extended tours. In 1983 I was deep in the LA music scene and faced a similar choice. My family has certainly benefited from putting the guitar down and taking a key role as father and provider at that time.

My interpretation of the Bible regarding wine is much closer to George. History tells us that wine, beer, and ale were instrumental in preventing widespread waterborne illness such as typhus and cholera up until the 20th century. There are many things in the bible that are intentionally left open to deep understanding and I respect Paul's opinion even if I disagree.

one of our teaching pastors responded when I asked him about our Batptist friend's contention that Jesus drank grape juice not wine. He said "really? what is the Hebrew word for 'refrigerator.'"

That said, the Christian position must always be the caring one. I helped put a roof on a pregnancy crisis center once. Multi-denom endeavor. It was hot! Catholics and Lutherans sent out for beer, but when we realized it offended the Baptists, we dropped the issue.

If drinking beer is a sin in the mind of my brother, I think I'll just have a bottle of ginger ale for now rather then offend his conscience.

As to clubs - our tapes of gigs often revealed audiances seemed to like us based on the beer-ometer more than the quality of our playing. Turned a few bad nights into good ones but vice versa too...

Talbot

one of our teaching pastors responded when I asked him about our Batptist friend's contention that Jesus drank grape juice not wine. He said "really? what is the Hebrew word for 'refrigerator.'"

That said, the Christian position must always be the caring one. I helped put a roof on a pregnancy crisis center once. Multi-denom endeavor. It was hot! Catholics and Lutherans sent out for beer, but when we realized it offended the Baptists, we dropped the issue.

If drinking beer is a sin in the mind of my brother, I think I'll just have a bottle of ginger ale for now rather then offend his conscience.

As to clubs - our tapes of gigs often revealed audiances seemed to like us based on the beer-ometer more than the quality of our playing. Turned a few bad nights into good ones but vice versa too...

Talbot

The Grateful Dead had a shroom-ometer and acid-ometer!

Like I said....don't want to stumble anyone. Yet there is a difference between cultural christian morality and what the scriptures actually say.



1. Serve grape juice at a jewish wedding and you'll be laughed out of town. Jesus had at least 4 large full cups of wine every Pesach (Passover) as did all the Apostles & Disciples. Yes, it was fermented because grapes will start to ferment in Israel after about a half-hour off the vine. It is extremely unlikely that this was the only time He would have drank wine.

Since water was not always available and clean, everyone in the old world drank wine. Usually it was diluted to the point that you couldn't get drunk without drinking a lot of it, but then there was the kind of wine you'd serve at a wedding which was much stronger. Isaiah 25 speaks about the "Wedding Supper" of the Messiah and it's clear that we'll be drinking "wine on the lees" (strong wine) at that table.

2. I don't see a bar as any worse than a musician's discussion group. I find pagans in them to be more honest about their faith than most christians sitting in churches, actually.

Perhaps every other month or so, I'll go to a musicians jam in a city where I find myself off for the night. These always held in bars but I'm really going for the music. Yes, I'll have a beer or two over the course of an evening, but I never get anywhere near drunk because I also have to drive myself back to a hotel room.

I go because these are "my people" and I want to hang with them. When they ask me (and they always do) what I'm doing in town, I tell them that I play in churches, which always gets the conversation going. I'm not looking at them like targets for evangelism; just being real and answering questions. Many of these conversations have had great results, and many conversations are still going.

But I find that most of them think they are condemned because they drink, do drugs, seek sex, etc. Most of them have no idea about what God's grace is, so I don't mind going where they are. It's certainly not something I would recommend for everyone though...

Yet I respect other convictions on the matter because we each have a unique calling in the Kingdom.

John 4:38

Neanderpaul - I'm jealous of your vocal abilities (you can play damn good too!)
It doesn't matter what/where your convictions are from regarding playing out - you have made your decisions to be there 100% for your family, and we all HAVE to respect that.

Thanks Mike!

And thanks all for keeping it cool while participating in a potentially volatile topic.

I'll add these passages...

That the aged men be sober, grave, temperate, sound in faith, in charity, in patience. (Titus 2:2 KJV)

Young men likewise exhort to be sober minded. (Titus 2:6 KJV)

That they may teach the young women to be sober, to love their husbands, to love their children, (Titus 2:4 KJV)

Even so must their wives be grave, not slanderers, sober, faithful in all things. (1 Timothy 3:11 KJV)

Therefore let us not sleep, as do others; but let us watch and be sober. (1 Thessalonians 5:6 KJV)

So we are told that being deceived by alcohol is foolish, to not be drunken, and we are told in many passages to be sober.

God only has to tell me once.

We no longer need alcohol to combat health issues due to poor water quality.

Alcohol is then unnecessary at best, a temptation, and stumbling block at worst. So many are physically, socially, and emotionally crippled by it.

When Jesus served the wine at the wedding feast they asked him why he had saved the best for last.

And saith unto him, Every man at the beginning doth set forth good wine; and when men have well drunk, then that which is worse: but thou hast kept the good wine until now. (John 2:10 KJV)

The best was the freshest. The newest. New wine is not fermented. Plus he had just made it. Plus we know The Lord has never tempted anyone.

Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man: (James 1:13 KJV)

So at a wedding they served the freshest with the least alcohol first. They asked Jesus why he had saved the freshest until the last.

George, The Lord did indeed design fermentation. He also designed hemlock and tobacco. I'm not using those killers either.

What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost which is in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own? (1 Corinthians 6:19 KJV)

Concerning "interpreting" the bible...

Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation. (2 Peter 1:20 KJV)

Jesus had at least 4 large full cups of wine every Pesach (Passover) as did all the Apostles & Disciples.

As I have done with all of my ideas I'll need you to quote your source.

If we who are Christians believe that the bible is the inspired word of God we will use it as the final say on all religious matters.

So Christians, if you have an opinion on a matter let it be decided by scripture. Then it won't be an opinion at all. It doesn't matter what I say or any person says. It matters what God said in his God breathed word.

Now I beseech you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye all speak the same thing, and that there be no divisions among you; but that ye be perfectly joined together in the same mind and in the same judgment. (1 Corinthians 1:10 KJV)

Oh, and it's not so noble of me to give my all to my wife and kids. As much as I LOVE music I derive way more joy and pleasure from being a father and husband. life is SWEET!! Thanks to God!

As I have done with all of my ideas I'll need you to quote your source.

If we who are Christians believe that the bible is the inspired word of God we will use it as the final say on all religious matters.

So Christians, if you have an opinion on a matter let it be decided by scripture. Then it won't be an opinion at all. It doesn't matter what I say or any person says. It matters what God said in his God breathed word.

Now I beseech you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye all speak the same thing, and that there be no divisions among you; but that ye be perfectly joined together in the same mind and in the same judgment. (1 Corinthians 1:10 KJV)

But those mine enemies, which would not that I should reign over them, bring hither, and slay them before me.
~ Jesus (Luke 19:27)

You do realize Mike, that that is a parable?

Deuteronomy 22

(22:13) "If any man take a wife, and go in unto her, and hate her."

(22:14) "And say, I took this woman, and when I came to her, I found her not a maid:"

(22:15) "Then shall the father of the damsel, and her mother, take and bring forth the tokens of the damsel's virginity unto the elders of the city in the gate:"

(22:16-17) "And ... say ... these are the tokens of my daughter's virginity."

(22:20) "But if ... the tokens of virginity be not found for the damsel,"

(22:21) "Then they shall bring out the damsel to the door of her father's house, and the men of her city shall stone her with stones that she die."

It's a good thing we aren't under the old imperfect law huh?

But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away. (1 Corinthians 13:10 KJV)

Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross; (Colossians 2:14 KJV)

As I have done with all of my ideas I'll need you to quote your source.

If we who are Christians believe that the bible is the inspired word of God we will use it as the final say on all religious matters.

So Christians, if you have an opinion on a matter let it be decided by scripture. Then it won't be an opinion at all. It doesn't matter what I say or any person says. It matters what God said in his God breathed word.

That's a rather legalistic approach to drinking which comes from a greco-church interpretation and morality. If you need that to stay on the narrow road, then again, I don't want to stumble you. If you can't do it "in faith" then to you it is sin.

Since this isn't a theological discussion site, I have no wish to argue with you in public, but I did show you where an Apostle (Paul) told his disciple to drink wine. Seems like that one example would be enough...and there are more we can go over should we ever meet and you want to do that.

But if you have ever participated in a Passover seder, you'd know that it requires 4 cups of wine. You can't separate the scriptures from the jewish culture & context and still get a clear picture of what they are saying.


And Mike, when Israel was a Theocracy (about 450 years) under Judges and Prophets that was the law.

But those verses were no longer enforced once God allowed His Law to be under that authority of man, when Saul became King about 973 BC



.

The choice of Christians to consume or not to consume wine from a purely Biblical perspective with chapter and verse, is best addressed by this pastor. He is far more thorough and eloquent in his analysis than I.

http://marshill.com/media/proverbs/good ... transcript