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#186982 by VinnyViolin
Thu Sep 20, 2012 4:14 pm
The Unspoken Alliance: Israel's Secret Relationship with Apartheid South Africa ......

A revealing account of how Israel’s booming arms industry and apartheid South Africa’s international isolation led to a secretive military partnership between two seemingly unlikely allies.

Prior to the Six-Day War, Israel was a darling of the international left: socialist idealists like David Ben-Gurion and Golda Meir vocally opposed apartheid and built alliances with black leaders in newly independent African nations. South Africa, for its part, was controlled by a regime of Afrikaner nationalists who had enthusiastically supported Hitler during World War II.

But after Israel’s occupation of Palestinian territories in 1967, the country found itself estranged from former allies and threatened anew by old enemies. As both states became international pariahs, their covert military relationship blossomed: they exchanged billions of dollars’ worth of extremely sensitive material, including nuclear technology, boosting Israel’s sagging economy and strengthening the beleaguered apartheid regime.

By the time the right-wing Likud Party came to power in 1977, Israel had all but abandoned the moralism of its founders in favor of close and lucrative ties with South Africa. For nearly twenty years, Israel denied these ties, claiming that it opposed apartheid on moral and religious grounds even as it secretly supplied the arsenal of a white supremacist government.

Sasha Polakow-Suransky reveals the previously classified details of countless arms deals conducted behind the backs of Israel’s own diplomatic corps and in violation of a United Nations arms embargo. Based on extensive archival research and exclusive interviews with former generals and high-level government officials in both countries, The Unspoken Alliance tells a troubling story of Cold War paranoia, moral compromises, and Israel’s estrangement from the left. It is essential reading for anyone interested in Israel’s history and its future.
#186984 by Vampier
Thu Sep 20, 2012 4:35 pm
...Mike Talbot always picks his words carefully and puts them forth in an intelligent manner and with personal eloquence. He always indicates the foundations of statement he utilizes to illustrate at least one powerful point. He may have been a "hot head" when he was younger but now he is truly a "thinking head".

His Posts always have great relevance and thought. He has a gift for taking even wingnut situations and simplifying them. If he was in a position to enforce such then many"problems" would get solved. He is exactly the sort of Tactical Commander that any Field Marshall would desire. He is always calm, polite and respectful and thinking and he speaks truths easily.

To stop shooting in any conflict is so obviously the most efficient way of ceasing it. I think for centuries now this sort of agreement has been called a Truce. The only catch is that such a Truce is only as good and as Honourable as those making it. Herein lies the problem because the "leaderships" involved on both sides are anything but Honourable ... they are corrupt and permeated with Evil and this will not change. Mike Talbot knows this while some seem to not.

The bushel of apples has become so rotten that the only answer is to take out the few remaining good ones (which are not on top) and clean them ... throwing out the basket and rotten apples together. If you were to place the clean apples back in the basket they most certainly rot as you can never clean a basket once it has contained rotten apples.

It is impossible to leave Amerika alone because it does not leave anyone else alone and never has. It has it's dirty filthy fingers in everyone's business ... the same as the UK. Amerika is nothing more now than a rotten basket mostly filled to the top with rotten apples. The only good apples are hard to find and are buried, surrounded by rotting ones. The "top" is completely covered with rot and worse still is invested with squirming corporate maggots.

National Security in the US is indeed precarious but the reasons are it's so-called leadership, greed and lack of humanity and morality ... it has become Evil. This "rot" infects everything it touches now despite there being some truly gifted and good individuals within it's borders. Amerika is now an Evil Empire complete with Evil Emperor and hidden Evil Masters who are anti-human.

Pat Buchanan speaks many truths with unique authority because of his positions and experiences. There are many others as well who do the same ...this is also fact.

If the UN was true to it's Charter and not the "boy" of hidden Masters then the situation od Israel and Palestine would have been resolved long ago and the hideous Theatrical Performances we are exposed to regularly wouild cease. But now at this moment there is truly great and lurking Danger there ... more thanever before. This bodes disaster not just for the area but for the world, planet and Mankind itself.

It is possible to be as Mike Talbot and speak your thoughts politely and eloquently and differ and disagree but not insult and inflame which is exactly what the "Evil" desires.

I firmly believe that Mike Talbot would be the same if he was holding a sword or gun instead of a guitar. He is rare and should provide inspiration instead of conflict.

Everyone here is supposed to be a Musician ... an Artist ...a Creator ... therefore sensitive and intelligent. This Forum then should be a shining example instead of an insult contest. Most here have valid points and indicate a willingness to "share" them in one way or another. Such rich creative soil should sprout a unique flower not a weed..

Some do have a "Code" of their own be it unwritten or unspoken or even unknown. Others need to get one. It is a simple matter and a personal one.

At this moment we as creative, artistic, musical, independent, thinking, caring and of course very good looking creatures should be making examples, setting precedents and inspiring our young. The time that remains to each of us is unknown but it is certain that it is short. I entreat you all to take it up a notch ... turn it to eleven. NOW is the time to do so.

Ta Live Well Die Well

#187011 by Stringdancer
Thu Sep 20, 2012 10:56 pm
Thejohnny7band wrote:
Stringdancer wrote:
fisherman bob wrote: To say that Zionists have "killed" Americans is a joke. .quote]

Sorry Stringdancer,
You are a hater and an anti-semite. The depth of your hate has twisted your views of history and the true nature of Israel and Zionism. I find hate and fear to be particularly paralyzing emotions that cause us to act foolishly and irrationally. Perhaps one day you will become enlightened.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zionism


Yeah J7 go tell that to the survivors OF USS Liberty or the parents of Rachel Corrie and the rest of the American victims of zionists how twisted their story is. See their history was written by them with the blood of their dear ones and from some propaganda book written to target simpletons like you

Dude you've just sacrificed American lives to the altar of zionism, if I am a hater at least my hate is directed toward people who have harmed American lives as opposed to you who have directed your hate and a total disregard toward fellow Americans.

Shame on you.

#187013 by Stringdancer
Thu Sep 20, 2012 11:34 pm
Slacker G wrote:
"USS Liberty was attacked in international waters by Israeli forces on June 8, 1967, killing 34 Americans and wounding another 174. )


I wouldn't necessarily conclude that it was done on purpose if both governments have investigated it. If there was only one pilot involved it could easily have been a mistake.

Ah yeah congratulation for your new found faith in government investigations, isn’t it nice to trust a government? No need for doubts or suspicions, just take the word at face value and move on your jolly way.

Please tell us what prompted this change of heart toward the government, are we now to disregard all your posts where you’ve expressed your lack of trust for Presidents and Administrations particularly Democratic Administrations.

See at the time of the USS Liberty attack Johnson was the President a democrat… go figure.

BTW is this newly found trust in government’s investigations applies to all the investigations for a selected few, or just for the ones that serves your narrative of the moment?

Mistake my ass; mistakes last seconds or at the most minutes not 6 hours of waves after waves of attack on a US Navy ship prominently displaying the US. Colors on the its highest Mast.

#187018 by Cajundaddy
Fri Sep 21, 2012 1:05 am
Naw, I hate no one string. Not even the crazy Arabs in the ME. My future son-in-law steps off the plane tomorrow after 10 months in Afganistan and we will be there to greet him. My other son-in law just got back last month. He was shot in the flak vest and it broke a couple of ribs but he will be ok. They got the bad guy though.

There are plenty of battlefield mistakes and friendly fire incidents to go around. The US and Israel have many. It is an unfortunate part of war that has existed since the beginning of time. Attempting to "spin" it into some master political plot is the only disgrace here.

#187026 by t-Roy and The Smoking Section
Fri Sep 21, 2012 3:11 am
Vamp, Vinny, and string....


what a load of crap you guys have swallowed. Please tell me...when have the arabs ever told the truth? Are you also going to start quoting Hitler?

IF you can find an example (and you can't) my next question is how many lies do they have to tell before you realize they can't be trusted to tell the truth?

I've got lots of experience in Israel and in some of her neighbors. I've also got many friends in the arab christian community. I'm not jewish and don't have a dog in the fight. My only concern is the truth and you guys don't know jack. Anti-zionism is only a dishonest form of anti-semitism, perpetrated by ignorant fools. Don't be foolish!

I'll be glad to explain on a case-by-case basis why you are only parroting the propoganda of muslims, but I find that people who hate the jews simply will not be persuaded by the truth without God taking the blinders off them first.

And the woman who died by a bulldozer jumped in front of it, thinking it could stop in time. She was as stupid as they come.









.

#187027 by t-Roy and The Smoking Section
Fri Sep 21, 2012 3:16 am
"Anti-Zionism = Anti-Semitism"

- Dr. Martin Luther King Jr.


". . . You declare, my friend, that you do not hate the Jews, you are merely 'anti-Zionist.' And I say, let the truth ring forth from the high mountain tops, let it echo through the valleys of God's green earth: When people criticize Zionism, they mean Jews--this is God's own truth.

"Antisemitism, the hatred of the Jewish people, has been and remains a blot on the soul of mankind. In this we are in full agreement. So know also this: anti-Zionist is inherently antisemitic, and ever will be so.

"Why is this? You know that Zionism is nothing less than the dream and ideal of the Jewish people returning to live in their own land. The Jewish people, the Scriptures tell us, once enjoyed a flourishing Commonwealth in the Holy Land. From this they were expelled by the Roman tyrant, the same Romans who cruelly murdered Our Lord. Driven from their homeland, their nation in ashes, forced to wander the globe, the Jewish people time and again suffered the lash of whichever tyrant happened to rule over them.

"The Negro people, my friend, know what it is to suffer the torment of tyranny under rulers not of our choosing. Our brothers in Africa have begged, pleaded, requested--DEMANDED the recognition and realization of our inborn right to live in peace under our own sovereignty in our own country.

"How easy it should be, for anyone who holds dear this inalienable right of all mankind, to understand and support the right of the Jewish People to live in their ancient Land of Israel. All men of good will exult in the fulfilment of God's promise, that his People should return in joy to rebuild their plundered land.

This is Zionism, nothing more, nothing less.

"And what is anti-Zionist? It is the denial to the Jewish people of a fundamental right that we justly claim for the people of Africa and freely accord all other nations of the Globe. It is discrimination against Jews, my friend, because they are Jews. In short, it is antisemitism.

"The antisemite rejoices at any opportunity to vent his malice. The times have made it unpopular, in the West, to proclaim openly a hatred of the Jews. This being the case, the antisemite must constantly seek new forms and forums for his poison. How he must revel in the new masquerade! He does not hate the Jews, he is just 'anti-Zionist'!

"My friend, I do not accuse you of deliberate antisemitism. I know you feel, as I do, a deep love of truth and justice and a revulsion for racism, prejudice, and discrimination. But I know you have been misled--as others have been--into thinking you can be 'anti-Zionist' and yet remain true to these heartfelt principles that you and I share.

Let my words echo in the depths of your soul: When people criticize Zionism, they mean Jews--make no mistake about it."



From M.L. King Jr., "Letter to an Anti-Zionist Friend," Saturday Review_XLVII (Aug. 1967), p. 76.
Reprinted in M.L. King Jr., "This I Believe: Selections from the Writings of Dr. Martin Luther King Jr."

#187028 by Slacker G
Fri Sep 21, 2012 3:27 am
"And the woman who died by a bulldozer jumped in front of it, thinking it could stop in time. She was as stupid as they come."


I guess that gives some credence to Darwinism, but I still am a believer in God and His creation.

#187032 by J-HALEY
Fri Sep 21, 2012 4:23 am
yod wrote:"Anti-Zionism = Anti-Semitism"

- Dr. Martin Luther King Jr.


". . . You declare, my friend, that you do not hate the Jews, you are merely 'anti-Zionist.' And I say, let the truth ring forth from the high mountain tops, let it echo through the valleys of God's green earth: When people criticize Zionism, they mean Jews--this is God's own truth.

"Antisemitism, the hatred of the Jewish people, has been and remains a blot on the soul of mankind. In this we are in full agreement. So know also this: anti-Zionist is inherently antisemitic, and ever will be so.

"Why is this? You know that Zionism is nothing less than the dream and ideal of the Jewish people returning to live in their own land. The Jewish people, the Scriptures tell us, once enjoyed a flourishing Commonwealth in the Holy Land. From this they were expelled by the Roman tyrant, the same Romans who cruelly murdered Our Lord. Driven from their homeland, their nation in ashes, forced to wander the globe, the Jewish people time and again suffered the lash of whichever tyrant happened to rule over them.

"The Negro people, my friend, know what it is to suffer the torment of tyranny under rulers not of our choosing. Our brothers in Africa have begged, pleaded, requested--DEMANDED the recognition and realization of our inborn right to live in peace under our own sovereignty in our own country.

"How easy it should be, for anyone who holds dear this inalienable right of all mankind, to understand and support the right of the Jewish People to live in their ancient Land of Israel. All men of good will exult in the fulfilment of God's promise, that his People should return in joy to rebuild their plundered land.

This is Zionism, nothing more, nothing less.

"And what is anti-Zionist? It is the denial to the Jewish people of a fundamental right that we justly claim for the people of Africa and freely accord all other nations of the Globe. It is discrimination against Jews, my friend, because they are Jews. In short, it is antisemitism.

"The antisemite rejoices at any opportunity to vent his malice. The times have made it unpopular, in the West, to proclaim openly a hatred of the Jews. This being the case, the antisemite must constantly seek new forms and forums for his poison. How he must revel in the new masquerade! He does not hate the Jews, he is just 'anti-Zionist'!

"My friend, I do not accuse you of deliberate antisemitism. I know you feel, as I do, a deep love of truth and justice and a revulsion for racism, prejudice, and discrimination. But I know you have been misled--as others have been--into thinking you can be 'anti-Zionist' and yet remain true to these heartfelt principles that you and I share.

Let my words echo in the depths of your soul: When people criticize Zionism, they mean Jews--make no mistake about it."



From M.L. King Jr., "Letter to an Anti-Zionist Friend," Saturday Review_XLVII (Aug. 1967), p. 76.
Reprinted in M.L. King Jr., "This I Believe: Selections from the Writings of Dr. Martin Luther King Jr."


My FAVORITE JEW is JESUS CHRIST OUR LORD AND SAVIOUR! IMO if you HATE JEWS YOU HATE AMERICA! I am not Jewish to my knowlege! I just know ANYONE that wants to exterminate 7 million of any people Well thats just WRONG! My Dumbass talks off wanting all these haters of our embassy's to DIE! All this Zionist talk makes me want to get another BEER! Me thinks my fav. JEW had to have invented Beer & Pastrami on Rye with Horse radish mustard OH YEAH! 8)

#187036 by Stringdancer
Fri Sep 21, 2012 5:00 am
yod wrote:Vamp, Vinny, and string....

And the woman who died by a bulldozer jumped in front of it, thinking it could stop in time. She was as stupid as they come.



.



Oh man this guy is vilifying an innocent victim to make his case how low can these zionist stoop?

Yo brainiac (lol) the bulldozer ran over her body twice, the second time she got run over she was already close to dead, next you gonna tell me that she revived herself and jumped in front of the bulldozer again.

In your fanatic zeal to defend the indifensible you have exposed youself to be a clumsy liar, soiled the memory of a beautiful young lady and a humanitarian.

Load of crap you said?

#187037 by Stringdancer
Fri Sep 21, 2012 5:04 am
Slacker G wrote:
"And the woman who died by a bulldozer jumped in front of it, thinking it could stop in time. She was as stupid as they come."


I guess that gives some credence to Darwinism, but I still am a believer in God and His creation.


Dude that is deep, did you think of it all by yourself or someone helped you.

#187039 by J-HALEY
Fri Sep 21, 2012 5:07 am
J-HALEY wrote:
yod wrote:"Anti-Zionism = Anti-Semitism"

- Dr. Martin Luther King Jr.


". . . You declare, my friend, that you do not hate the Jews, you are merely 'anti-Zionist.' And I say, let the truth ring forth from the high mountain tops, let it echo through the valleys of God's green earth: When people criticize Zionism, they mean Jews--this is God's own truth.

"Antisemitism, the hatred of the Jewish people, has been and remains a blot on the soul of mankind. In this we are in full agreement. So know also this: anti-Zionist is inherently antisemitic, and ever will be so.

"Why is this? You know that Zionism is nothing less than the dream and ideal of the Jewish people returning to live in their own land. The Jewish people, the Scriptures tell us, once enjoyed a flourishing Commonwealth in the Holy Land. From this they were expelled by the Roman tyrant, the same Romans who cruelly murdered Our Lord. Driven from their homeland, their nation in ashes, forced to wander the globe, the Jewish people time and again suffered the lash of whichever tyrant happened to rule over them.

"The Negro people, my friend, know what it is to suffer the torment of tyranny under rulers not of our choosing. Our brothers in Africa have begged, pleaded, requested--DEMANDED the recognition and realization of our inborn right to live in peace under our own sovereignty in our own country.

"How easy it should be, for anyone who holds dear this inalienable right of all mankind, to understand and support the right of the Jewish People to live in their ancient Land of Israel. All men of good will exult in the fulfilment of God's promise, that his People should return in joy to rebuild their plundered land.

This is Zionism, nothing more, nothing less.

"And what is anti-Zionist? It is the denial to the Jewish people of a fundamental right that we justly claim for the people of Africa and freely accord all other nations of the Globe. It is discrimination against Jews, my friend, because they are Jews. In short, it is antisemitism.

"The antisemite rejoices at any opportunity to vent his malice. The times have made it unpopular, in the West, to proclaim openly a hatred of the Jews. This being the case, the antisemite must constantly seek new forms and forums for his poison. How he must revel in the new masquerade! He does not hate the Jews, he is just 'anti-Zionist'!

"My friend, I do not accuse you of deliberate antisemitism. I know you feel, as I do, a deep love of truth and justice and a revulsion for racism, prejudice, and discrimination. But I know you have been misled--as others have been--into thinking you can be 'anti-Zionist' and yet remain true to these heartfelt principles that you and I share.

Let my words echo in the depths of your soul: When people criticize Zionism, they mean Jews--make no mistake about it."



From M.L. King Jr., "Letter to an Anti-Zionist Friend," Saturday Review_XLVII (Aug. 1967), p. 76.
Reprinted in M.L. King Jr., "This I Believe: Selections from the Writings of Dr. Martin Luther King Jr."


My FAVORITE JEW is JESUS CHRIST OUR LORD AND SAVIOUR! IMO if you HATE JEWS YOU HATE AMERICA! I am not Jewish to my knowlege! I just know ANYONE that wants to exterminate 7 million of any people Well thats just WRONG! My Dumbass talks off wanting all these haters of our embassy's to DIE! All this Zionist talk makes me want to get another BEER! Me thinks my fav. JEW had to have invented Beer & Pastrami on Rye with Horse radish mustard OH YEAH! 8)
BUMP?

#187043 by Stringdancer
Fri Sep 21, 2012 5:22 am
[quote="yod"]"Anti-Zionism = Anti-Semitism"

- Dr. Martin Luther King Jr.

quote]

I wonder if he would feel the same today if he saw the plight of the Palestinians.

I'm sure MLK was referring to zionism the way it was almost half century ego, since then zionism has evolved into a cruel, merceless cynical cold blooded criminal organization. Would he feel the same now?
I think not.

Anti zionism does not equal anti semitism, there are honest sincere Jews who make that distinction clearly for decades. When it comes to whose word I take regarding this definition, I'll take the word of a Jew over any uninformed cowboy hat wearing ------ fill the blank.

#187046 by t-Roy and The Smoking Section
Fri Sep 21, 2012 5:47 am
I wonder if he would feel the same today if he saw the plight of the Palestinians.




And what is their plight?

They are being brutalized by their own "leaders". Arafat stole every penny of American and European aid and put it in a Swiss account. Abbas is doing the same thing now. The waiting list of arabs who want to immigrate to Israel is long and mostly Palestinian. They know something you don't.

I have several close arab friends, some of them Palestinian. Wadjee and his brother Mohammed moved to Dallas after the Oslo Accords were signed. They bought a grocery store, then a tow truck, then started buying cars from auctions and had a succesful car lot. They decided they wanted to go home to help their people in Bethlehem.

They had no problems whatsoever in Israel. Period. But when they started trying to bring business and employment into Bethlehem, Arafat had Mohammed kidnapped and brought to Ramallah. There, he began demanding extortion money. They tortured him cruelly....broke all of his ribs one at a time until he was dead. Wadjee still cries when hears the word "arafat". HE will tell you the truth. Arab leaders ALWAYS use Israel as a scapegoat to divert attention away from their failure to help their own people.

Are you now going to tell me that Hamas is any better? You live in world of simplistic fantasies, bro. Do you ever do a critical analysis of what you're being spoonfed? I've been there many times and looked at facts on the ground. I've personally been through the checkpoints in the north, south, and east. I've been in neighboring countries and played in arab churches.

You don't know what you're talking about but it doesn't seem to stop you from perpetrating lies in utter ignorance.






I'm sure MLK was referring to zionism the way it was almost half century ego, since then zionism has evolved into a cruel, merceless cynical cold blooded criminal organization. Would he feel the same now?
I think not.



"You think not" only means you don't think.


MLK would still say the same thing because the only difference between now and then is that the arabs who call themselves Palestinian have gotten more violent and bloodthirsty.









Anti zionism does not equal anti semitism, there are honest sincere Jews who make that distinction clearly for decades.


baloney. Admit to yourself what everyone can see. You are ate up with it.






When it comes to whose word I take regarding this definition, I'll take the word of a Jew over any uninformed cowboy hat wearing ------ fill the blank.


So you will believe a few fringe jews if they justify your bigotry?

How typical

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