General Music Chat

Weve had a few threads where we discussed theory scales and modes.

I need some help from you theory and mode guys.

Lets take a couple of basic changes and you guys give me some guidance on these.

Take a rythym that pedals / A A A A / E E E E / A A A A / E E E E over and over, what would be a good scale or mode for a shredding type solo

Take a rythym that pedals / B B B B / E E E E / B B B B / E E E E over and over, what works for this one.

Just a mental exercise, I tend to fall back on the pentatonic scales, I would like something a little different to see where I can take it.

Thanks

Blues scale in A:
e-|--|--|3-|--|5-|--|--|8-|--|10|11|12|--|--|15|--|17|--|--|20|--|22|--|24|
B-|--|--|3-|4-|5-|--|--|8-|--|10|--|--|13|--|15|16|17|--|--|20|--|22|--|--|
G-|--|2-|--|--|5-|--|7-|8-|9-|--|--|12|--|14|--|--|17|--|19|20|21|--|--|24|
D-|--|2-|--|--|5-|--|7-|--|--|10|--|12|13|14|--|--|17|--|19|--|--|22|--|24|
A-|--|--|3-|--|5-|6-|7-|--|--|10|--|12|--|--|15|--|17|18|19|--|--|22|--|24|
E-|--|--|3-|--|5-|--|--|8-|--|10|11|12|--|--|15|--|17|--|--|20|--|22|23|24|

Blues scale in B:
e-|--|2-|--|--|5-|--|7-|--|--|10|--|12|13|14|--|--|17|--|19|--|--|22|--|24|
B-|--|--|3-|--|5-|6-|7-|--|--|10|--|12|--|--|15|--|17|18|19|--|--|22|--|24|
G-|--|2-|--|4-|--|--|7-|--|9-|10|11|--|--|14|--|16|--|--|19|--|21|22|23|--|
D-|--|2-|3-|4-|--|--|7-|--|9-|--|--|12|--|14|15|16|--|--|19|--|21|--|--|24|
A-|--|2-|--|--|5-|--|7-|8-|9-|--|--|12|--|14|--|--|17|--|19|20|21|--|--|24|
E-|--|2-|--|--|5-|--|7-|--|--|10|--|12|13|14|--|--|17|--|19|--|--|22|--|24|

Blues scale in C:
e-|--|--|3-|--|--|6-|--|8-|--|--|11|--|13|14|15|--|--|18|--|20|--|--|23|--|
B-|--|--|--|4-|--|6-|7-|8-|--|--|11|--|13|--|--|16|--|18|19|20|--|--|23|--|
G-|--|--|3-|--|5-|--|--|8-|--|10|11|12|--|--|15|--|17|--|--|20|--|22|23|24|
D-|--|--|3-|4-|5-|--|--|8-|--|10|--|--|13|--|15|16|17|--|--|20|--|22|--|--|
A-|--|--|3-|--|--|6-|--|8-|9-|10|--|--|13|--|15|--|--|18|--|20|21|22|--|--|
E-|--|--|3-|--|--|6-|--|8-|--|--|11|--|13|14|15|--|--|18|--|20|--|--|23|--|

Blues scale in D:
e-|--|--|3-|4-|5-|--|--|8-|--|10|--|--|13|--|15|--|17|--|--|20|--|22|--|--|
B-|--|--|3-|--|--|6-|--|8-|9-|10|--|--|13|--|15|--|--|18|--|20|21|22|--|--|
G-|--|2-|--|--|5-|--|7-|--|--|10|--|12|13|14|--|--|17|--|19|--|--|22|--|24|
D-|--|--|3-|--|5-|6-|7-|--|--|10|--|12|--|--|15|--|17|18|19|--|--|22|--|24|
A-|--|--|3-|--|5-|--|--|8-|--|10|11|12|--|--|15|--|17|--|--|20|--|22|23|24|
E-|--|--|3-|4-|5-|--|--|8-|--|10|--|--|13|--|15|16|17|--|--|20|--|22|--|--|

Blues scale in E:
e0|--|--|3-|--|5-|6-|7-|--|--|10|--|12|--|--|15|--|17|18|19|--|--|20|--|24|
B0|--|--|3-|--|5-|--|--|8-|--|10|11|12|--|--|15|--|17|--|--|20|--|22|23|24|
G0|--|2-|3-|4-|--|--|7-|--|9-|--|--|12|--|14|15|16|--|--|19|--|21|--|--|24|
D0|--|2-|--|--|5-|--|7-|8-|9-|--|--|12|--|14|--|--|17|--|19|20|21|--|--|24|
A0|1-|2-|--|--|5-|--|7-|--|--|10|--|12|13|14|--|--|17|--|19|--|--|22|--|24|
E0|--|--|3-|--|5-|6-|7-|--|--|10|--|12|--|--|15|--|17|18|19|--|--|22|--|24|

Blues scale in F:
e-|1-|--|--|4-|--|6-|7-|8-|--|--|11|--|13|--|--|16|--|18|19|20|--|--|23|--|
B-|1-|--|--|4-|--|6-|--|--|9-|--|11|12|13|--|--|16|--|18|--|--|21|--|23|24|
G-|1-|--|3-|4-|5-|--|--|8-|--|10|--|--|13|--|15|16|17|--|--|20|--|22|--|--|
D-|1-|--|3-|--|--|6-|--|8-|9-|10|--|--|13|--|15|--|--|18|--|20|21|22|--|--|
A-|1-|2-|3-|--|--|6-|--|8-|--|--|11|--|13|14|15|--|--|18|--|20|--|--|23|--|
E-|1-|--|--|4-|--|6-|7-|8-|--|--|11|--|13|--|--|16|--|18|19|20|--|--|23|--|

Blues scale in G:
e-|--|--|3-|--|--|6-|--|8-|9-|10|--|--|13|--|15|--|--|18|--|20|21|22|--|--|
B-|--|--|3-|--|--|6-|--|8-|--|--|11|--|13|14|15|--|--|18|--|20|--|--|23|--|
G-|--|--|3-|--|5-|6-|7-|--|--|10|--|12|--|--|15|--|17|18|19|--|--|22|--|24|
D-|--|--|3-|--|5-|--|--|8-|--|10|11|12|--|--|15|--|17|--|--|20|--|22|23|24|
A-|--|--|3-|4-|5-|--|--|8-|--|10|--|--|13|--|15|16|17|--|--|20|--|22|--|--|
E-|--|--|3-|--|--|6-|--|8-|9-|10|--|--|13|--|15|--|--|18|--|20|21|22|--|--|

for the 1st one A/E/A/E, I want to say G minor.
for the 2nd one B/E/B/E, I get E minor .. (Remember it's all subjective, so one man's treasure is another man's trash, just see if you can get something usable out of it)

My brain needs more coffee..play with this and if you need more, we'll see what else comes to the top after I fully am conscious.
(sorry I am half-assed, my head is pounding this am)

If there are any errors, please forgive me..

OUCH ... all those numbers.

G blues third variation full scale ?

http://www.all-guitar-chords.com/guitar ... 0&choice=1

I love thiese theory threads, but it's not something
your gonna learn in a few paragraphs or in a day
or a week.

The blues scale and the pentatonic minor scale are
the same except for the blues note. Find the relationship
between the pentatonic minor and major scales, the
pentatonic major scale is exactly the same as the blues
scales Mr. Scott laid out (minus the blues note), just played
in different positions in each key.

Or you could play the major scale, or some harmonic,
or melodic minors, or natural minor scales. It's harder
to make the 7 notes of the major scale sound good, then
it is the pentatonic scales, but in the major scale you have 7
modes to play with.

And then theres modes, modes work the same in any scale.
Its easiest to explain modes in the key of C, so the notes
of the C major scale are CDEFGAB, this is the Ionian mode
I believe or more precise the C major scale 1st position. So
2nd position would be DEFGABCD, so you start on D the
2nd note of the major scale and the 3rd mode would be
EFGABCDE, and so on. So you got 7 modes in the major
scale cause you have 7 notes, but you have10 modes in the
pentatonic scales 5 major and 5 minor,

So if your playing AAAA/EEEE/AAAA/EEEE you could play
any of the 7 modes of the A major scale, or any of the modes
of the 10 pentatonic scales in A, or a blend of them all,
that sounds fun. Or you could switch keys with every chord
canange and play the 7 major modes of A against the A
chord, and then the 7 modes of E against the E chord, or
you could play any of the modes of the 10 penatonic scales,
against the A then switch to the 10 modes of the E pentatonic
scales against the E, or a blend of all the above.

I reallydon't see any of it being subjective, except the way you
apply these scales and modes, all western music is based off
of and explained thru the major scale. Chord relationships
are also based off the major scale. So see how your notes and
your chords in A, B, and E, relate according to the major scale,
the great thing is to break out of the scale and make it work.
It's been done a million times, you can always fall back on your
scale and chord theory to find the note that will always sound good.
Kinda complicated (not really), a I, IV, V has always sounded
good and always will.

There I go again, but theory is something that's been handed
down from the previous masters of the last thousand years,
I kinda think they might know a little something. And don't
you have to learn from past masters?

Lynard

Modes of pentatonic scales? Is it safe to assume that the modes are modes associated with the five elements of the scale?

thanks
Talbot

Mike


Modes are "associated" with the 5 notes of
the pentatonic scale. I didn't look real close,
but it looks like Mr. Scott has all these modes
listed, maybe not in the easiest to understand
order. When I look at modes for any scale, I
start with the 1st position, the 1st note in the 1st
position will be what key the scale is in, if you take
the scales Mr Scott has showed us, and learn them
inside and out, not just finger positions, but what
notes your actually playing, look at Mr Scott's 1st
scale the A blues scale and put notes in there
instead of fret positions you would see the
repeating pattern all up and down the neck. and only
5 notes plus the blues note. I don' t know if you can
learn it in one setting

Find the note you want to start on.

Close your eyes.

Play.

The world is your oyster over a 2 chord groove JW. It just depends on what you want to do:

Here is a Zack Wilde pent shred in A:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MkTzpxwX ... re=related

Slash chromatic riff from A:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pPa4xMoE ... re=related

Shred harmonics in A:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lLNTuH5a ... re=related

Outside the box with a little Petrucci legato:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iCyUQG9d ... re=related

Diminished Blues licks:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qFqT2JfH ... re=related

It all works. Just depends on how you want to express yourself for a given song or groove. If you learn just one of these it can add some nice hot sauce when you need it. If you pound your audience with the same 1/32 note pattern all night I will personally come down there and shoot you. Theme and melody are still king.

Weve had a few threads where we discussed theory scales and modes.

Take a rythym that pedals / A A A A / E E E E / A A A A / E E E E over and over, what would be a good scale or mode for a shredding type solo

Take a rythym that pedals / B B B B / E E E E / B B B B / E E E E over and over, what works for this one.

Thanks

Both these progression/pedal notes can be associated with the Cmajor key:

The modes on C:
C Ionian (harmonic formula: 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7)
D Dorian (harmonic formula: 1, 2, 3b, 4, 5, 6, 7b)
E Phrygian (harmonic formula: 1, 2b, 3b, 4, 5, 6b, 7b)
F Lydian (harmonic formula: 1, 2, 3, 4#, 5, 6, 7)
G Mixolydian (harmonic formula: 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7b)
A Aeolian (harmonic formula: 1, 2, 3b, 4, 5, 6b, 7b)
B Locrian (harmonic formula: 1, 2b, 3b, 4, 5b, 6b, 7b)

Any of these modes can sound intact with those progressions.

Jsantos

how have you been?

As to the modes / pentatonic question. I posed it poorly in my question to Lynard.

What I mean is that I assume the modes work against the major scale as you spelled out in your post - that being a diatonic scale. It would seem to follow that the modes available in a pentatonic scale would be equal to the modes associated with that note / scale position in the diatonic?

A good thread. For me, this is what I like to talk about since sometimes a minor comment will open a door of understanding to some area where I've been struggling.

Talbot

Jsantos

how have you been?

As to the modes / pentatonic question. I posed it poorly in my question to Lynard.

What I mean is that I assume the modes work against the major scale as you spelled out in your post - that being a diatonic scale. It would seem to follow that the modes available in a pentatonic scale would be equal to the modes associated with that note / scale position in the diatonic?

A good thread. For me, this is what I like to talk about since sometimes a minor comment will open a door of understanding to some area where I've been struggling.

Talbot

Thanks for asking, Mike. All is well, aside from our Bass player breaking his finger, we are taking as a hiatus from performance and focus on writing original songs.

It's easiest to the think of the Modes, or modal sound as harmonizations of the base Major scale.
The 'flavor' works wether you are using 7 notes or 5 for the most part.
So ya, you can play in a modal sounding way using pentatonic scales - in fact that's essentially all Carlos Santana does.

To my understanding, to truly get the mode 'flavor', your target notes (or home notes) are whatever step of harmonization you choose, against the key you are playing in.

So... if my calculations are correct... if you play a C major scale while you are in the key of A, it should come out sounding Phrygian (egyptian like).
The fingering steps will shift a little due to the way the notes fall on the fretboard. Just listen for the notes that sound wrong while you play, and adjust.

Or if you want some pizzaz, just learn the diminshed scale outright, and apply it to your progressions, JW.
Or weave in and out out pentatonic and diminished.

Thanks for the suggestions guys.

Over the years Ive always had a knack for what sounds "right" in a given situation, but at times I do find myself repeating the same structure and intervals, so Im working on expanding my "safe box" of guitar licks.

Ive been rediscovering Van Halen again and its helping a lot, plus info like here will go a long way for me.

Once again thanks, I feel these are the types of discusions we should be having on a site like this.

I love threads like this..

No one answer is going to suffice, but if you need a piece and you go over what's been listed/talked on here, you might just bump into it if you play through all the choices.

That's what I do. I listen for the sweet sounding choice that has been suggested.

I don't think it's going to help my latest tune...... "but even a blind squirrel bumps into a nut one in a while" last part of quote by ~JimmyD.

(Quality info here to be sorted through by composers and musicians..)

We had a gig sat night and I was kinda off my rocker, doing things in songs way out of character, imagine Sweet Home Alabama funkified with a touch of raggae to boot. We really stretched some songs beyond maybe where they should go.

Had a great time playing, and I used a lot of ideas Ive gotten from threads like this.

The new EVH Phasor pedal sounded great, but oddly we didnt play any Van Halen, after I worked all week on Panama our bassist didnt get a chance to work thru it. LOL