General Music Chat

How, essentially should harmonies be approached in a song? For example, When in a song is a good time to harmonize, and what should we avoid?

I ask, because some songs are just so brilliant, and i say to myself How did they decide to do it that way...? and so on.

Of course most people use harmony during choruses. But I love it in verses too. I try to stick to two-part usually, but some choruses can benefit from a third part. I also like a harmony part that is below the lead or even talks the part.

Great thread Dog! There are several ways IMO to use harmony in song! Instrumental and vocal. The fact is the general listening public LOVES to hear harmony! I prefer if harmonies are used during a verse to keep them 2 part. During the chorus however I like to hear a minimum 3 part and prefer 4 to 5 parts. The don'ts for vocal harmonies IMO are to spread the parts out to much. You want them VERY tightly grouped. An example of this would be The lead singer with a 3rd above and a octave above the lead. Thats 2 spread out for my taste. I would rather hear lead (melody) a 3rd above a 5th above a 3rd below with an octave above the lead and an octave below. I have on my site many examples of these Star, Lost My Baby, Ecstacy, and in My originals I tracked my voice in 3 part on Let Her Go, and Lucky Stars.

In harmony with instruments I like to hear it done with a lot of Melody not just harmony for the sake of having it! an example of this would be on my site in One Time the keyboard player wrote the melody and Bernard and Myself play it in harmony just before the main solo. I play the first half and Bernard plays the second half

Good idea for a discussion.

For verses, I usually like just the melody part. But not always. Any time you have a call and answer situation, the answer can and probably should be harmonized. A lot of the time the last line will work harmonized, and sometimes every other line. Bu the call and answer thing is pretty common.

A good example would be the Eagles' "Life In the Fast Lane", in the chorus. In the chorus, the line "Life in the fast lane" is harmonized, followed by "surely make you lose your mind" done by a single singer. (Don Henley I think). This almost always works well.

During verses, the same thing can be done and can work, if used tastefully.

In my song Last Train, I went for just the last line of the verse harmonized, and just two parts. Then 2 parts for the chorus, except for the last line. When I get a chance to redo it and add bass, drums and some other minor instrumental parts, I might tinker with 3 part for the chorus, but will probably stick with 2 part.

For recording I also like to double up the harmony parts to make it full. The same 2 to 4 parts, but do it again so it sounds more like a choir doing it. That's what we did with "Southern Cross", that I posted a thread about a few days ago. It's just 3 guys, but it sounds like a much larger group. ELO was great at that, their harmony vocal parts sounded like 30 people sometimes. Ditto for Queen, Styx, Eagles and others. Sometimes those groups have a wall of vocals in the choruses and sometimes they do use a full choir. Queen's "Fat Bottom Girls" and "Bohemian Rhapsody" are great examples. Styx "Renegade" intro is just 2 or 3 parts, but it sounds like a dozen people doing it.

In general, harmonies are usually built on thirds. For some songs 4ths will work well, and sometimes I'll put in a 5th and no 3rd. And when using thirds if you listen close you'll find you have to switch between major and minor thirds a lot too. A straight major third will not always work for every note.

Octaves...I love octaves. But it's not easy to find a place an octave will work well. Pink Floyd used that on "Sorrow", from Momentary Lapse of Reason. The last verse is done using an octave part and it works very well. That's another band that creates a wall of harmonies in some places.

You can do some excellent things with vocal harmonies, they key is to do it tastefully. Don't overdo it, and try to determine whether a song would be better off with harmonies or just one vocal part. I can't see "Sitting On the Dock Of the Bay" with anything but one vocal part. Or "TV Dinners". Others I can't see without serious harmonies. "Seven Bridges Road". Try that one with just one singer...A lot of the Eagles' tunes would be just plain bland without a lot of harmony parts.

It's not easy to dissect, and put down in text form. How and when to use harmonies depends on the song. The only way I know to find out is to try it and see. With the band that did "Southern Cross" we always looked for lots of vocals, we were a very vocal oriented band. But we tried songs that didn't originally have harmonies too. Some worked, some didn't. You just try it and see.

How, essentially should harmonies be approached in a song? For example, When in a song is a good time to harmonize, and what should we avoid?

I ask, because some songs are just so brilliant, and i say to myself How did they decide to do it that way...? and so on.

avoid vibrato. I can't imagine it would work well unless the other parts can keep in time.

Very good topic. I would say without question this is the weakest part of almost every band I've been in. Since I have been in primarily blues bands there usually isn't much call for harmonies as most blues songs don't have them. In all the rehearsals I've done getting people to practice harmonies is like pulling teeth. What little harmonies we have worked on haven't "worked" very well. The next band I'm in IS going to work on harmonies, whether the band likes it or not. I plan on adding at least one tune with harmonies per set. What sets apart a lot of great bands is the ability to harmonize well, and vocals in general. There's a few extremely talented bands in town who would be world famous if they concentrated on improving the vocals. Recording rehearsals with harmonies is the key to getting it right IMO. This takes a lot of work and experimenting to see if it fits in certain songs.

I agree Bob. IMO the way to concentrate on vocals is to have vocal rehearsals. In other words you stand in a circle and practice your harmonies like a vocal group. I have been in several bands that do this. Its really a lot of fun. First you have to have a good musical director in the band. I tell folks that want to learn to sing harmony, when you are singing along don't listen and learn to sing the lead or Melody. Concentrate on the harmonies and train your ear to pick them out. It also helps to have a high harmony guy. In the band I am currently in I am that guy. Of coarse I am not a Tenor. I can sing about 95% of the notes a tenor can but there is that 5%. I sing the super high notes in a false etta. I am singing the super highs above Steve Perry in our Journey tunes.

Harmony, not just in vocals but in every instrumentation you have ever listened to, are a double bladed knife.

They can be cool because they raise immediate listening interest, but they can also tire the average listener's ear quickly.

The next time anyone wants to listen to some of the great classical operas or symphonies, listen to how carefully extended use of harmony was avoided.

Now here is a great secret, UNISON can have as much impact as harmony if there is enough difference in every voice. It can have impact with out the tension that heavy harmony makes you hear. Why? It goes back to a general rule about resolution, you know the one that let's "BLUES" players resolve by any 1/2 step. (jazz and actually all music)
If you picked apart some of the harmonies you love you would be amazed at how many musical rules,,,, mmmmhhh,,, trying to clear my voice, are broken.

Awsome responses...Thank you , all! This is really helpful...

avoid vibrato. I can't imagine it would work well unless the other parts can keep in time

Excellent observation. Definitely avoid vibrato, it can only lead to trouble.

What J Haley said about vocal practice is exactly what is needed. The band I mentioned that recently recorded Southern Cross did exactly that. I would grab an acoustic guitar or turn my electric down to acoustic volume or lower, and we would spend at least a half hour out of almost every band practice working on harmonies. Especially when first learning a new song. That is a must, you can't come across with good harmonies onstage without practicing it beforehand.

You have to each know exactly what part you have to sing, when to sing and when to drop out, and how to equalize your volume level with the other singers.

Anyone in the band who is not singing also has to be patient and QUIET while vocal practice is going on. I almost got into a fight with our other guitar player (who was fired later) because he left his amp cranked up to stage volume and kept doodling while we tried to work out harmony parts. I finally told him shut up, he said he needed to practice. I told him - well yelled, actually - practice at home...which he never did. It almost escalated into a a fight but the other vocalists backed me up and told him we couldn't hear what we were trying to do with him playing LOUD...he finally got the message and shut up, but it cost us a useless day of rehearsal, since everybody was pissed from there on and we quit early because we were getting nothing done.

If you have trouble hearing yourself you can put your finger in your ear, press the little middle flap closed. That will let you hear yourself much better. I remember seeing the Bee Gees on TV as a kid, and one of them always did this. I always wondered why until I found out by accident one night. He couldn't hear himself so he had no idea whether he was hitting the right notes. That was also my signal to my sound man years ago that I needed more monitor. Unfortunately it also means you have to stop playing guitar...

This is where a good monitor system is worth its weight in gold too. Onstage the ability to hear all the vocals well is critical. If you can't hear the vocals, the harmonies will suck.

OK I'm going to drop in a shameless plug here. Since I've mentioned Southern Cross a couple of times, here is the thread. Give it a listen if you haven't already. After 10 years not seeing each other we can still harmonize this well with no practice, just a quick run through. If we had spent a half hour working on it, and we should have, we would have been able to nail it with no trouble...that's what you get for getting in a hurry...

http://forum.bandmix.com/viewtopic.php?t=18315

I think it was Paper Dog who first noticed the harmonies were a bit off on the first chorus. I'm not sure which of us it was, but it was corrected pretty quickly. This is where hearing yourself is critical. But when you hear all 3 vocal parts, it's not as easy as you may think to pick out which one is YOU...I was really surprised when I first tried it onstage and found out how difficult it was to determine my own part, even with only two singers. That's why vocal practice is critical.

harmony is an essential part of " good vocals " . which are needed to be a "popular " band . a good draw or following is required these days for work ,there is not much out there right now & what is available has heavy competition. vocals are the one aspect of music in where the general public can hear a difference. so in order to be employed you need good, if not great ,vocals.

Vocal harmonys, I like a 5th, dont we all like 5ths!, and octaves personally, either a higher octave or in some cases a lower octave.

My band weve never actually practiced harmonys, but after playing so long together we just seem to fall in place, Ive played with other groups here and there and its not as easy for some reason.

Sometimes at gigs our singer will just say can you take the hi line on this one, my throat is hurting, or he may say do the lower line.

I think it makes it interesting.

On guitar I love a 5th octave up, in fact I have that preset in my whammy pedal. Occasionally I will do one octave up. For crazy sound effects with my delay unit I will do two octaves up, great for stuff like RATMs Killing In The Name. I think it was mentioned that you can easily overdo these effects, I try to use them sparingly. I recently sat in with a group and the guitarist had a great rig but he kept his flanger on constantly, just kind of sounded lame to me, and thin, I like a thick guitar tone. I even discussed it with him, but it was what he liked, I said man you should record a show and see what Im talking about, it just washes your guitar out in my mind, but to each his own.

harmony is an essential part of " good vocals " . which are needed to be a "popular " band . a good draw or following is required these days for work ,there is not much out there right now & what is available has heavy competition. vocals are the one aspect of music in where the general public can hear a difference. so in order to be employed you need good, if not great ,vocals.

I think that your vocals are the most important part of a band in popular music, if they suck then the whole band sucks. Make sure you can hear the vocals, and set your other volumes to match and compliment the vocals first and foremost. Im a loud guitarist and it took me years to realize that the guitar isnt the primary instrument, your vocals are.

My band weve never actually practiced harmonys, but after playing so long together we just seem to fall in place, Ive played with other groups here and there and its not as easy for some reason.

JW - Same with us. We did practice vocals a lot when we played on a regular basis, but onstage it was no problem to switch parts if necessary. After a while you get to the point you know what everyone is going to do before they do it. Well, except for me since I make it a point to be unpredictable...but as far as vocals go, we all knew exactly what was going to happen, and if one guy had trouble another could take his part. We even did it in the middle of a song sometimes. A quick nod and a gesture and we could switch parts on the fly. But that takes a lot of practice and years of playing together.

Guitar players and effects...my pet peeve. I've seen loads of guitar players do exactly what you noticed. Especially guys who play those damn Peavey Chorus amps...99% of them leave the chorus on all the time and it drives me up the wall it's so boring and monotonous. I like the chorus amps pretty well, except that they have no tubes, but people need to realize it has an OFF switch...I don't understand it. I have a Ibanez Phase shifter, I use it maybe 3 songs a night. The only effects that is constantly in use is the Arion Analog Delay, and I make sure you can barely tell it's there. Overdrive gets used a lot for leads, distortion occasionally, but my favorite is just guitar and amp. Nothing like a clean finger picked lead...

I've also seen plenty guitar players who have great rigs, but constantly tinker with effects all night, often to the point it detracts from the music, and you have to sit there between songs and wait while the guy fiddles with effects settings when you should already be playing...

OK back to vocals though...probably the reason some bands have more trouble getting harmonies together, making it more difficult, is two things.

1. It takes lots of practice. Most bands don't do that. So the harmonies suffer.

2. Many people don't have a good enough ear to really nail a harmony part well. You have to have a good ear to do it.

One of the things I mentioned above is where practice really pays off, being able to hear your part in the mix. If you work on it with just an acoustic guitar to keep the chord progression and timing in place, everyone can hear quite well and it makes a huge difference once you bring it to the stage. Then you know what to listen for. That's probably why you've noticed some bands being easier to harmonize than others.

Its funny you say all that, cause these days with my band we dont even talk in musically terms, its more who needs a beer, we just are in sync, pardon the pun!