General Music Chat

Whenever I am told "I just do this for fun; Spare time, Nothing serious,..." in the same breath as "My fees are..."

I feel a little nervous at the prospect that the guy would have an impact in my artistic fate...

How would you feel, think?

Professional just means it's what a person does for a living. It doesn't refer to their ability, commitment, attitude or talent. Amateurs do it for other reasons than just money, so you could very well do better having amateurs in your band. Many pros make much less than a living wage.

It doesn't matter what someone's fees are. I pay what I can afford and I always pay well. If my offer is not enough to pay the best, I will hire a comparable musician and will pay what I can afford to pay that musician. My main consideration is the comraderie that is shared between us.

Professional just means it's what a person does for a living. It doesn't refer to their ability, commitment, attitude or talent. Amateurs do it for other reasons than just money, so you could very well do better having amateurs in your band. Many pros make much less than a living wage.

In Some industries, Professional also implies a high degree of vocational maturity, sophistication, significant experience over non-professionals, (who simply haven't reached that level just yet. ) The main difference is typically spotted by the quality of their work. Your work verses mine, illustrates this, You win hands down


Now, if Eric Claption told me he's done , retired but still like to do it for fun, and he offers to help out a junior artist like my self...... , I'll be just fine with that... (dancing in apoplexy....) and pay him what every I can physically muster.. .

On the other hand, if I get a guy who does it all his life, really hasn't got much to show for it, but offers to help out... I'd be appreciative, but probably have some reservations about it.. In this case, if he could convince me that he takes the effort seriously (not so casually), I might feel better about it.

I don't care whichever way. This industry reminds me of a chaotic bazaar. This weekend I just had a friend tell me a guy at Sony was interested in him, but wanted $150 a song to critique him. WTF? So is this how the record industry is getting by these days?

I look at a pro like this - you're able to come onto a gig and not know all the songs, but you're able to wing it and no one could tell the difference. I don't appreciate people DECIDING that they're pro and asking for top dollar and they aren't very good. Cisco has a friend who pops up and does a few songs with his band. He picked an old Hendrix song - I can't remember which one, but they played it so funky and no one knew all the words to the song, but he got the audience all revved up with making them clap and he started just singing whatever, but it worked. Everybody was on the dance floor. That's a pro to me.

Chaeya

I don't care whichever way. This industry reminds me of a chaotic bazaar. This weekend I just had a friend tell me a guy at Sony was interested in him, but wanted $150 a song to critique him. WTF? So is this how the record industry is getting by these days?

I look at a pro like this - you're able to come onto a gig and not know all the songs, but you're able to wing it and no one could tell the difference. I don't appreciate people DECIDING that they're pro and asking for top dollar and they aren't very good. Cisco has a friend who pops up and does a few songs with his band. He picked an old Hendrix song - I can't remember which one, but they played it so funky and no one knew all the words to the song, but he got the audience all revved up with making them clap and he started just singing whatever, but it worked. Everybody was on the dance floor. That's a pro to me.

Chaeya

He sounds like a Pro showman...But can he outdo Prince?

That's a loaded question. So many possible scenarios. Does he just show up to gigs? Does he help haul and set up equipment? Does he rehearse with your band? Does he have his own following? Almost impossible to give you an answer. Would you be willing to pay him more than your bandmembers make per gig? I guess it all depends on the individual/circumstances...

I don't care whichever way. This industry reminds me of a chaotic bazaar. This weekend I just had a friend tell me a guy at Sony was interested in him, but wanted $150 a song to critique him. WTF? So is this how the record industry is getting by these days?

I look at a pro like this - you're able to come onto a gig and not know all the songs, but you're able to wing it and no one could tell the difference. I don't appreciate people DECIDING that they're pro and asking for top dollar and they aren't very good. Cisco has a friend who pops up and does a few songs with his band. He picked an old Hendrix song - I can't remember which one, but they played it so funky and no one knew all the words to the song, but he got the audience all revved up with making them clap and he started just singing whatever, but it worked. Everybody was on the dance floor. That's a pro to me.

Chaeya

He sounds like a Pro showman...But can he outdo Prince?

He plays bass and he ain't as pretty as Prince. Ha ha!

Chaeya

I don't care whichever way. This industry reminds me of a chaotic bazaar. This weekend I just had a friend tell me a guy at Sony was interested in him, but wanted $150 a song to critique him. WTF? So is this how the record industry is getting by these days?

I look at a pro like this - you're able to come onto a gig and not know all the songs, but you're able to wing it and no one could tell the difference. I don't appreciate people DECIDING that they're pro and asking for top dollar and they aren't very good. Cisco has a friend who pops up and does a few songs with his band. He picked an old Hendrix song - I can't remember which one, but they played it so funky and no one knew all the words to the song, but he got the audience all revved up with making them clap and he started just singing whatever, but it worked. Everybody was on the dance floor. That's a pro to me.


I so agree. There is no way in hell that you can know and play everything. But, if you can make an audience think that you can you are the musician who will be hired. It is a job, folks.

Chaeya

I began playing guitar because I wanted to play and create music. It was rewarding on so many levels. I never wanted to play professionally and that was not my goal. Regardless, for about 12 years or more that is all I did every night every week. I made enough to support a family and buy new gear, and I did not miss any meals. I also burned out and was tired of playing covers that I didn't like, for drunks that I didn't particularly care for, and playing in places where I didn't care to play. I had offers to play in Nashville and in Vegas, with other bands. I chose not to trade my freedom for the total commitment I thought that would bring.
That didn't make me any less a musician. So what's the deal if someone says they play for the fun of it, and then tell you what they would have to have to play a job? A good many musicians that play for the sheer enjoyment of it, but do not like the feeling of being a bug under glass when they're on a bandstand, tell you what it would take to get them onto one? I can still play as well as most around here and I have severe arthritis in both hands. Septic, Rheumatoid, and Ostio arthritis + several others. It seems that is what my daddy left me in the gene pool. It would take a pretty big paycheck to tempt me to play a gig knowing how my hands would feel the next week or so. I can say I play for fun, but I would charge "X $$$ " to play a gig. So what is wrong with that? It's MY personal choice. If anyone doesn't like my choices, that is their problem, not mine.

Whenever someone decides that your personal choices need to fit their agenda, that pretty well fits the description of being a busybody. When will folks realize that personal choice is just that? It means you don't have to fit into the mold that someone else decides is right for everyone. They can say they play for the enjoyment of playing, and then they can also say how much they would charge to leave their personal choice behind, if their personal choice is to only play for the enjoyment of playing.

Like any other job, if you want to turn music into a job, you look at the good and the bad of the person you wish to hire. After all, there is a thing such as "Sorry, I don't think this is working out for us." How many musicians do you have to go through to get the perfect band? Sometimes it's quite a few, and even than it won't be perfect. If someone does find their PERFECT musicians for a band, why would they want to play for you in the first place? (Not specifically referring to you... just a twist in the old adage "I wouldn't want to be a member in any club with people who would let me join".


Jimmy had a good answer, so did Black and Bob.

I began playing guitar because I wanted to play and create music. It was rewarding on so many levels. I never wanted to play professionally and that was not my goal. Regardless, for about 12 years or more that is all I did every night every week. I made enough to support a family and buy new gear, and I did not miss any meals. I also burned out and was tired of playing covers that I didn't like, for drunks that I didn't particularly care for, and playing in places where I didn't care to play. I had offers to play in Nashville and in Vegas, with other bands. I chose not to trade my freedom for the total commitment I thought that would bring.
That didn't make me any less a musician. So what's the deal if someone says they play for the fun of it, and then tell you what they would have to have to play a job? A good many musicians that play for the sheer enjoyment of it, but do not like the feeling of being a bug under glass when they're on a bandstand, tell you what it would take to get them onto one? I can still play as well as most around here and I have severe arthritis in both hands. Septic, Rheumatoid, and Ostio arthritis + several others. It seems that is what my daddy left me in the gene pool. It would take a pretty big paycheck to tempt me to play a gig knowing how my hands would feel the next week or so. I can say I play for fun, but I would charge "X $$$ " to play a gig. So what is wrong with that? It's MY personal choice. If anyone doesn't like my choices, that is their problem, not mine.

Whenever someone decides that your personal choices need to fit their agenda, that pretty well fits the description of being a busybody. When will folks realize that personal choice is just that? It means you don't have to fit into the mold that someone else decides is right for everyone. They can say they play for the enjoyment of playing, and then they can also say how much they would charge to leave their personal choice behind, if their personal choice is to only play for the enjoyment of playing.

Like any other job, if you want to turn music into a job, you look at the good and the bad of the person you wish to hire. After all, there is a thing such as "Sorry, I don't think this is working out for us." How many musicians do you have to go through to get the perfect band? Sometimes it's quite a few, and even than it won't be perfect. If someone does find their PERFECT musicians for a band, why would they want to play for you in the first place? (Not specifically referring to you... just a twist in the old adage "I wouldn't want to be a member in any club with people who would let me join".


Jimmy had a good answer, so did Black and Bob.

This question really was not about personal choice (That another thread

I hear ya ...but I disagree about the busy-buddy thing. Somebody in a band has to take the lead and there ain't NOTHING WORSE than a bunch of stoners and flakes , who pontificate righteous... to the point that they sabotage the plans and direction of the band. In the absence of firm convictions, Somebody has to step up like a leader and make the call... I would agree if it comes to diparate styles, philosophies, etc, then the 'Sorry but its not gonna work out" line comes to bear.

My question is about a level of comfort. I guess, by the answer you gave, you would probably not be too bothered by somebody who offers casual participation, but expects to be treated as a full participant (I.e fees, etc) ?

"A Professional is someone who does his job even when he doesn't feel like it." - I wish I could remember who said this.

I don't make my living at music.

I don't play for the money.

Nevertheless, I expect to be paid. What I'm actually worth. That means I don't make as much as Victor Wooten, but I make more than the kid I was when I started playing.

To some extent my motive for this is covered by this quote:

"Money is the sincerest form of flattery. Women love to be flattered. So do men." - Robert A. Heinlein

Also, the club is making money from my efforts, I feel like I deserve a share.

So, am I a professional? Nah. I'm a committed amateur. My income from my music is strictly hobby income.

But...

I show up for gigs. I come prepared. I learn the material and I show up on time. Even when circumstance leave too tired to really want to be there. Even when the guitarist is drunk and I want to deck him, I keep doing the best I can.

I play my part, even when I don't feel like it.

"A Professional is someone who does his job even when he doesn't feel like it." - I wish I could remember who said this.

I don't make my living at music.

I don't play for the money.

Nevertheless, I expect to be paid. What I'm actually worth. That means I don't make as much as Victor Wooten, but I make more than the kid I was when I started playing.

To some extent my motive for this is covered by this quote:

"Money is the sincerest form of flattery. Women love to be flattered. So do men." - Robert A. Heinlein

Also, the club is making money from my efforts, I feel like I deserve a share.

So, am I a professional? Nah. I'm a committed amateur. My income from my music is strictly hobby income.

But...

I show up for gigs. I come prepared. I learn the material and I show up on time. Even when circumstance leave too tired to really want to be there. Even when the guitarist is drunk and I want to deck him, I keep doing the best I can.

I play my part, even when I don't feel like it.

You seem like the kind of musician I could work with.. I think you have the right attitude. Here's the thing about the money... I believe that the money comes when the following conditions get met: We, as entertainers should obtain a mastery of our instruments, voices, compositional skills, and even physical appeal. These are the core elements that , when polished and refined for a production, do indeed create a presence about us, which audiences are willing to pay for , (especially if they feel they can 't get enough of...). There are boatloads of musicians who will gig to a point, play, solely to please themselves...and of course, from a commercial point of view...it shows. (And hey! I'm guilty as charged!) If I want to pursue a vision, how many dudes or dudettes do I gotta wade through, fuss about song rights, schedules, aches and pains..how much politicking, whining, backstabbing must there be...just to gel a solid, reliable act. ?
From a professional point of view, my assumption of real success would seem to entail many 15 hour days, 7 days a week... If that holds true..then who the heck has time for all the politics.,,and the whining?

I truly believe the best musicians on earth all share one thing in common, to be sure...They share a work ethic that is un-paralleled. That is why its so frigging hard to find sustainable members for a band... because so many of them are flakes.

If anybody else is reading this...do ya all understand why a feller might be uncomfortable with a musician who throws" I only do it for casual purposes" on the table. Its not a problem if you are causal as well.. But its a huge problem for somebody who wants to shoot way to the top... I'm just saying.

"My question is about a level of comfort. I guess, by the answer you gave, you would probably not be too bothered by somebody who offers casual participation, but expects to be treated as a full participant (I.e fees, etc) ?"



Performance, my man, performance. If they do the job to my expectation, and the band gets re booked for the gig, what does it matter? If they can't or won't work full time, then use them for the gigs you have lined up. You have to ask yourself. Is it better to have a gig with someone who can do the job and gets along with the other musicians, or is it better to sit around practicing without any gigs? I knew a good many bands that spent all their time practicing but never booked enough gigs for real commitment from a good musician. You can always find out of work musicians to replace them eventually if you get some full time gigs.

So no. A qualified part time musician that makes the band sound good and satisfies the club owner and crowd would be quite satisfactory in my opinion.