General Music Chat

I know Dog, I'm from the midwest and the bars get packed to see people play. I guess because the scene is smaller and there aren't a lot of choices.

I mean, I was reading where numerous nightclubs have been duking it out to get people to come, so they'd invite porn stars and strippers with burlesque shows just to entice people to show up. I would love to play in some other cities because I'd know people would truly appreciate what we're doing.

Like I said, no matter where you are, it's always something and it's a fight to make a place for yourself.

Chaeya

Its not hard to write a song. but it sure is hard to write one that has mass appeal.

I disagree....There must be a bazillion songs that don't have a message worth figuring out, but have gone Gold because of the way it was produced and marketed.

I will see your disagreement and raise you a disagreement

I also disagree with the general perception of "hired guns" vs regular members. I've lost enough time & money trying to edit an extremely good live drummer into being a great one in the studio. I've lost enough money trying to get a good guitar player to consider the song over his own personal desire to show how fast he can play, rather than hiring someone who just knows that we need basic chords and something melodic during the interlude. And I'm not going to argue any more with a bassist over what the bottom line should be. I'll hire someone who can hear it the first time....or is at least willing to take direction from the songwriter & producer (me). I could play every instrument myself, but why do that when I can hire the best and tell them what to do?

This is kind of...no..wait...this is exactly what I have been trying to explain to other posters, who are delighting in busting my chops about my 'attitude'

If you want to be a recording artist, it's about making recordings worth buying. There are 300 million people in the USA alone so if one in three hundred like your music, then you are potentially Gold. Finding a niche is how record labels stay alive, and it's the same thing with an individual artist.

I agree... And as such, making gold records is a double-edge sword. Under your described tenets, sheer numbers will describe (dictate) the'value' of a song. A couple of things... Ever noticed a hit hit song just "appears' one day on the radio? Never happened, never will happen, because typically, you'll be inundated with buzz about "upcoming releases" That is a direct function of "leveraging" to turn (1 in 300) into (100 out of 300). It was rumored that Brian Epstein bought the first 10,000 copies of the Beatles first record...just to get the song on the charts. Back then, buzz wasn't as prolific.

Jerry Abbott (Pantera) told me in 1988 that they were going to change from glam-pop rock to hardcore BECAUSE it was a smaller market and they could reach every listener worldwide by advertising in only 2 magazines. To continue in the glam-pop world meant competing with everyone from Van Halen to Def Leopard, with full page ads in Billboard and a huge marketing budget. Yet, once they had secured the loyalty of a specifically hard-core audience, they could begin expanding into other areas of rock. It's called narrow-marketing and it worked well for them. In the same way, if an artist can discover what makes them unique and narrow-market to that niche, they could survive on sales of 10,000 a year without any help from a manager or label. THEN, the managers and labels would come looking for you and you'd be negotiating from a position of strength without signing your future away.

There's a huge problem with this scenario... Of course it makes economic sense, but the risk of narrow marketing parallels the same problem that TV actors suffer...They get type-cast. You'll never see William Shatner successfully get away with doing Fiddler on the Roof, Cats, or Cuckoo's Nest... You';ll never see Abbot get away with with haunting orchestrated tunes or good, catchy Blues... no matter how good he may actually be at it... In either case, they won't be getting calls from agents and managers outside the markets they mastered. Some might argue that type casting was regarded as a punishment to those who "dared to sell out" to the corporate monkeys.
Of course...Me personally...I get tired of being broke, so I can see where this option (Narrow Marketing) smells almost as good as "Reverse-Mortgages"

But the point of the OP was, "If you aren't willing to invest in yourself, then why would anyone else be?"

I totally agree with this... just gotta be very careful about the company you keep and the land-mines and traps that get set along the way.

Hip hop and rap artists sell out shows more than any other genre because people will come out. I don't get it.

they are already dancing on the grave of rock and roll

It's a hard road, but I'm in for the good fight.

Chaeya

I pray for you the strength to keep punching...harder.

Of course it makes economic sense, but the risk of narrow marketing parallels the same problem that TV actors suffer...They get type-cast.

Aren't all bands that way since the 80s?

How many different "sounds" does Nickleback have? Can you tell the difference between them and Daltrey? How many rock bands have an Eddy Vedder-ish singer? Who cares anyway since hip-hop?

Being type-cast is almost inevitable in music anyway. Few people jump genres well (besides Sting), even though they might continually change styles within a genre.



What narrow-marketing does is help your bookings person find the people that would appreciate you most for being who you are. If you are trying to be a middle-of-the-road pop/rock band, then it might not help.

Instead of trying to appeal to the masses, you figure out the audience you would most appeal to, that's all. Then you focus ALL of your energy on introducing yourself to that narrow market because it's the one which will grow the fastest if you've got the goods.

I'm not saying that it's easy. Identifying the audience doesn't necessarily mean you can take it on the road and bedazzle them. But I still think that it's smart marketing unless you've got a million or more to break a band quickly.




And thou darest to disagreeth on my pious point, thither yon hither, which art:

I disagree....There must be a bazillion songs that don't have a message worth figuring out, but have gone Gold because of the way it was produced and marketed.
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Have you ever heard Louie, Louie? Huge hit...what the hell are they saying?????


NO ONE knows!!!!




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Of course it makes economic sense, but the risk of narrow marketing parallels the same problem that TV actors suffer...They get type-cast.

Aren't all bands that way since the 80s?

How many different "sounds" does Nickleback have? Can you tell the difference between them and Daltrey? How many bands have an Eddy Vedder-ish singer?
Being type-cast is almost inevitable in music anyway. Few people jump genres well (besides Sting), even though they might continually change styles within a genre.
What narrow-marketing does is help your bookings person find the people that would appreciate you most for being who you are. If you are trying to be a middle-of-the-road pop/rock band, then it might not help.
Instead of trying to appeal to the masses, you figure out the audience you would most appeal to, that's all. Then you focus ALL of your energy on introducing yourself to that narrow market because it's the one which will grow the fastest if you've got the goods.
I'm not saying that it's easy. Identifying the audience doesn't necessarily mean you can take it on the road and bedazzle them. But I still think that it's smart marketing unless you've got a million or more to break a band quickly.
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I can see both sides... The advantages are as you described However...

1) I always thought it actually promoted "middle of the road bands.. Sort of like artifially kept a species alive , whereas if it were left to Darwinism, they would have died out..
2) It does raise the question of how the Consumer of music is being fed. Way Before MTV, I used to listen to vinyl records, and to the radio shows (when real DJs ruled). My heroes , the ones whom I went out to buy records of, were always the ones that had enormous variety and scope in their styles. Even the niche bands knew how to step out of some boxes.
Narrow Market bands like Nickleback would simply not have cut it back then. The bigger picture about recording industry was how to make money for the execs. The narrow marketing schema really isn't about what you, the consumer liked...Its about what the guy next door to you , liked... To your exclusion, and worse yet, you'd have to listen to what he liked , whether you liked it or not . Before all that , it was common to promote music where the chances were good that Most of us liked it.
With Narroe marketing, and as Tom Petty said so eloquently, "There goes the last DJ". Now you could program your show in... for a time slot, that hit specific audiences... Market advertisers jumped in...

Let me say this as simple as I know how to... Your songs, My songs...if they make it to air time, it is solely because they have the elements to lure listeners to a station...(not to actually please listeners) And we all know that stations aren't about promoting the songs...They are about promoting the advertisement. The songs, simply guarantee the advertisers an audience for exposure. This is the true root reason of narrow Marketing. (Is not about giving a real talent any breaks)
As such, this might partly explain why we hear so much worthless sh*t over the airwaves. (Its not about the music anymore)

Let me say this as simple as I know how to... Your songs, My songs...if they make it to air time, it is solely because they have the elements to lure listeners to a station...

It's not impossible to have the right song happen at a unique point in time

But most likely, if an artist gets more than one or two plays, or if it gets on a major satelite network, then it happened because someone paid the network's chosen "Promoter" (aka Indie) enough cash for a kickback to an exec somewhere.

Payola still runs the airwaves, they've only changed the method of payment to make it legal. A few years ago, Clear Channel network dropped all pretense and began demanding that thie payola go directly to them, instead of through a middle-man indie promoter. I don't think they were able to work it out, legally, though?




I'm talking about narrow-marketing for the artist, which means they don't try to please every person in a broad genre, but rather choose to focus on a smaller audience within a specifically narrow genre who would appreciate what they do. Once they've established a base audience, they can begin growing that and expanding outward.




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