General Music Chat

I think on this Jahva makes a good point. Ive only been to NY once but damn there is just nowhere to rest your ears, it was nonstop noise everywhere you went all day and all night. I think maybe they should have quiet zones and maybe entertainment areas.

If someone is making a living playing music in the park why shouldnt they be taxed? I mean everybusiness I own is taxed, just playing devils advocate, I know many of you dont like the government or taxes, but some of this money does get funneled back into the arts and preservation of the arts, so its not a cut and dryed thing.

Of course then you have a songwriter who maybe just wants to sit there and play music by himself.

I dont know what to say on all of this.

Central Park is what 800 acres? Thats not a lot of space when you look at the population there, so as I said before maybe there should be quiet zones and entertainment zones of some sort.

I think on this Jahva makes a good point. Ive only been to NY once but damn there is just nowhere to rest your ears, it was nonstop noise everywhere you went all day and all night. I think maybe they should have quiet zones and maybe entertainment areas.

If someone is making a living playing music in the park why shouldnt they be taxed? I mean everybusiness I own is taxed, just playing devils advocate, I know many of you dont like the government or taxes, but some of this money does get funneled back into the arts and preservation of the arts, so its not a cut and dryed thing.

Of course then you have a songwriter who maybe just wants to sit there and play music by himself.

I dont know what to say on all of this.

Central Park is what 800 acres? Thats not a lot of space when you look at the population there, so as I said before maybe there should be quiet zones and entertainment zones of some sort.

Good point JW.

There are a lot of single family homes sitting on 800 acres or more in my part of the country.
May sound like a lot of land to folk living stacked like roaches.
But it really is not all that large.

Yeah it's a good point, but how do we know they aren't filing taxes? And I'm not totally against a permit of some kind, but what I was concerned about they create quiet zones and then music areas. Then you have all the musicians jammed up in one area.

I'm not against having some "quiet zones" either, but are you saying that there are just too many musicians in central park that you can't go get any quiet anywhere? Just asking . . .

Chaeya

This isn't about permits, this is actually about destroying one of the wonderful things about a vibrant city. You turn one corner and the smell of a great kitchen(your choice) fills your senses. You turn another corner and you have street peddlers filling your ears with endless chatter. Meanwhile a subway screeches to a halt almost under your feet. Riders on messenger bikes go by and people dressed in so many different styles of clothes. A beggar asks for a dollar, you gladly share. There is so much going on that all your senses are soothed by the sunset and the passing cloud. In the distance you are also strangely disoriented because something is missing.


Come on this is not the Rolling Stones putting on a street show because they love to play. This is about a guitar you walk 15 feet away from and the wind in the trees is louder.

This is all about control, moral control. Come ON. Any one want to believe in this crap?

I hope they're NOT paying taxes. Govt doesn't do ANYTHING I want them to spend money on. Starve the swine.

What did they do to help some musician learn his chops? They are creeps - it goes beyond being thieves and power freaks - they are downright creepy. Each day is more like I'm living out some horror story. Only the Vampires are running things - sucking the blood out of a country that used to be pretty darn wothwhile.

Even the mafia is better than the govt freaks - when the family 'taxes' you for protection you are at least protected. The govt? They can't even protect their own interests let alone ours. They are evil and they are incompetant - a toxic brew.

People say weed should be legalized so it can be taxed. To me that's the only reason NOT to legalize. These people can not be trusted with money. And they should not be trusted with guns.

Other than that, I love 'em dearly...

I guess what pisses me off is that their last ditch effort before all this falls apart is to destroy whatever charm is left in our culture. (see 500$ fine for kid running lemonade stand)

Talbot

ps I vow to Eschew politics after this. Spoils my sense of meter.

Stranger than fiction. It was the accepted norm for over a century and now it’s suddenly illegal?

“Not everyone goes to the park to be entertained.”

True, but entertainment has been available there for more than your lifetime. So do you go to where the entertainment is, then demand silence? Is the denial of the free expression of others ok, when it happens to coincide with someone’s wishes?

I want peace and quite anywhere I just may happen to stroll. So if I’m in a bowling alley, my needs surely take precedence over some silly game. So with an utterance of discomfort, all noisy bowling should be immediately disallowed. My individual right for quite comes first! All of society must comply, because I’m not responsible to pursue individual happiness on my own. Instead it is the government’s responsibility to provide that, at all times and anywhere I see fit. All the world must bend over backwards to protect me from myself. For who else could predict where I might end up in my travels? Where I go of my own free will, must be considerate of my sexuality, race, religion, safety and above all else, my individual wants. That’s what I pay taxes for!

It’s not an individual endeavor anymore or even close to a pursuit, but instead, an automatic entitlement that my happiness be considered over something as trivial as personal liberty. Does freedom keep us safe, does freedom pay the taxes? No I say! All it does it provide my fellow citizens, the means to inconvenience myself. If I don’t like what I see it must be banned, if I don’t like what I hear it must be banned, if I don’t approve with what you do, it must be banned. All must be banned so I can proudly stomp on the eggshells the rest have to tiptoe on. Less I somehow be offended, at which point the earth surely shall stop spinning. How many of you have forgotten it’s all about me? Shame on you all for wanting to make music where it may by chance, fall upon my unwilling ears! I say nay, stop the musical rape!

If someone wanted absolute quite and it was such a necessity for them NYC is a poor choice to live. If they want green grass but no other living sole around, then they are free to visit a cemetery. Within an hour drive from NYC, they could be deep in woods where no one could even hear them scream. Of course if silence was such a necessity to feel free, then it’s readily obtainable, without infringing the right of free expression of others.

We all have priorities and if having the ambience of a monastery is high on that list, I encourage anyone to seek their happiness, without denying their fellow citizens. If other citizens having personal liberty and actively pursuing their happiness is “inconvenient” to anyone individually and causes no actual harm, really, you can just kiss my ass. Wow I can still say that for now, but for how long? Who here is offended? If you answered yes then good for you, the insult didn’t go to waste.

Denying one small factions’ freedoms, doesn’t enhance anyone else’s. Those all for it, have to realize that what seems whimsical and non necessary to themselves now, will eventually become anything that’s not considered as necessity later. They put it all up for grabs, because they are just unable to connect the dots. In the end the liberty they deny will be their own. Freedom to express through music, is not a far cry from the freedom to express through speech. It’s just a small technicality to surmount, once this is widely accepted as the norm (and it will be). Then we can all be truly free, from hearing any dissenting or contrary view, that may intrude upon the mandatory silence.

All for our own consideration of course. The pre-existing limitations of free speech were supposed to be due to concerns of safety, now it’s ok to deny liberty, if it simply becomes an “inconvenience” towards another individual!? It’s this acceptance, that will eventually require totalitarian rule to maintain consistent and utter control. All for the delusion of tranquility. Won’t life be fantastic when we are all Nazis, toting the party line? Proudly hailing the state for all it’s wondrous gifts and that great feeling of belonging and above all else the absolute order, that only a dictatorship can provide. It’s what the majority seems to want and except for the very few, what everyone else is “ok” with.

It’s easy to imagine the politicians just looking out for “what’s best” for everyone. Whenever I hear one speak that’s the first thing that pops into mind. “Just look at that selfless individual, doing what’s best for the people.” But wait! There will eventually be a solution. If you slide them some cash for a permit, well then those quite seekers be dammed, it’s all cool, now that some green can be extracted from the “discomfort” of those quite seekers, which they are going so far to “represent”. In short; you can pay to have that little bit of liberty back. Just as the founding fathers intended. Freedoms for money, that’s exactly what they had in mind. Hayden says it best: “Create a need then fill it”.

It’s all BS and everyone knows it. It has nothing to do with consideration and everything to do with control and greed. The politicians are really worried about the pedestrian tourists in the park where they make no direct revenue from? Really? Do tourists pay property taxes or vote? I must have missed the pitchfork and torch wielding masses demanding silence. All of NYC is up in arms because musicians are playing music in Central Park? Um yeah, I buy that. The real problem is there can’t be an IRS agent available for every hat on the sidewalk. Now we are talking about some serious political consideration!

John Lennon’s memorial is a “quite zone”? That couldn’t be any more ironic. I think he would do some tossing and turning knowing his memorial were to be included as an example towards demonstrating the omnipotent power of the system. Makes perfect sense that the person who did a singing sit in, to protest the Vietnam war, would of course want his memorial to be a “quite zone”. It’s just so fitting and a great example of bureaucracy run amok without sense or limits.

It’s an butchering of free expression and blatant corruption towards the memory of who within his lifetime, was one of it’s strongest proponents. Does anyone here for a second believe John Lennon would be ok with “quite zones”? Never mind one in his names sake? It’s simply absurd.

But nothing will happen, as always this little slice of lost liberty won’t go noticed and with a yawn if it does. As long as that cable TV stays on, we’re cool. I signed and will try to get all I know to do the same.

Say what no more naked cowboy????

For those not familiar with naked cowboy click on the link below, he has been a fixture in Time Square NY for the past 20 years.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m3gBX5wS2Zo

No thanks ...

I never realized the park system was created as a hang out for musicians. All the times i hiked in Yosemite i never thought... where's the saxophonist, did not realize they were missing. But i did enjoy the views.

Strawberry fields is also a memorial not just a 2.5 acre park. I think John would appreciate a place to honor others. And on the anniversary of his death it turns into a concert of fans playing and singing his music there. Just not every day.

I don't live in NY so i can only speak from my own experiences. I know when i go to the movies i may infringe on someone’s rights if they're too loud by asking them to quiet down. It's another one of those pesky quiet zones. About a week ago a lady riding Amtrak was being loud and she was removed from the train. Also in a designated quiet zone.
Some agree others don't. Parks have many purposes, and i'm not saying kick the players out, I don't see a big deal to just give em a section and name it. At least you'll know what you're walking in to.
WWJohnD?
Uhh...ask Yoko.

I played in Central Park last May at the Naumberg Bandshell. It was an incredible hassle to unload on the east side at 66th street, cart it all to the bandshell in the middle of the park about 79th street, then go park on the west side near 64th. Oy!!!

There were musicians playing at Strawberry Fields, btw. A couple of guys were busking, and doing credible versions of Lennon. Seemed to be making good $$$. There was a hip-hop dance group near us doing quite well and attracting large crowds.

I "think" that this new ordinance is about making specific areas where there is no busking, but not about shutting down music in the park altogether. Or it could be that they want to liscense it so they can charge fees.

I think the whole point of the petition is to let the voices of the musicians be heard as well. Like I said earlier, I'm not against "quiet zones" but if they see the support that the musicians are getting (because there are regular people complaining as well), it will make them take everything in consideration when making their decisions on how to carry this out. Many times they just make an ordinance without any consideration and it's win-lose situation in favor of them. However, it can be worked out where it becomes a win-win situation for both the people who would like some quiet and the musicians who just want to make some money.

I'm all for win-win situations.

Chaeya

But Jahva if one day you crest that ridge in Yosemite and do find a saxophonist what will you say? Honestly 99% would not say a thing and go about their travels. Perhaps you would, most wouldn’t.

Those same people could all be for keeping musicians out of an area renowned for it’s “natural” beauty. So when a law comes up for banning musicians, they are all for it. No problems here right? The majority will have been served and now until forever, no musician will ever be allowed in that park.
(not you personally Jahva, I’m not making that assumption, it’s all hypothetical)

In my preferable scenario, instead we ask the guy politely for a few minutes of awe time. He may protest that he was there first. But he can always play after we have left and obviously was playing before we arrived. A shared area should be shared and if we feel we are entitled to some peace at that moment, then yes we should exercise our first amendment and say so. Our personal freedom is worth arguing over, it’s actually worth fighting for. How would denying that musician the ability to play there in the future, give us back that moment in time that we declined to express an opinion? If it’s within a crowd and our opinion is that of the majority, the rest will demand the same. We have won our small slice of freedom and still protect the same liberties for our opponents. They can play tomorrow, or after we leave.

More importantly if you yourself, one day decided to climb out on some remote Yosemite peak to play a saxophone at three in the morning while camping, because “you just felt like it.” You may piss off anyone sleeping near by. Expressing your freedom was indeed inconsiderate, but not illegal. And those annoyed have every right to tell you so. In a free society some chaos has to be allowed, even when it’s inconvenient and even dangerous to the individual. Demanding a law for every social interaction, denies us individual accountability. Where it’s inconsiderate, there is a law needed instead and since I’m know longer required to know the difference, I am free from the obligations of personal discretion. Hence the perfect solution to my lack of consideration, is simply more laws.

But would you be amazed if while playing someone broke out a drum, or another a guitar? Unlikely sure, but without that opportunity, it then becomes impossible. Those wonderful weird moments that can only be experienced in a free society, happen less and less. If you were at a hotel and wanted to go swimming at three in the morning, would you, or even could you? Perhaps you could in Vegas, I know you can in Aruba. Why is that? That something just so inconsequential and unnecessary, could be widely accepted at other places, but met with utter intolerance here? Who is going to say “insurance”, is that what makes it alright? How about the pool in my own back yard? Will the neighbors just shrug it off, yell out the window, or break their toe stumbling for the phone to call the cops? Thirty years ago it could have been any of the above, today the last is really the only feasible solution.

Speaking of guitars, what do you tell the park ranger when he issues you a ticket for playing an instrument in the park? Sure playing guitar around the campfire wasn’t what you had in mind, but there you are. Your camping neighbors are early risers and they hit the sack at around sunset. All that noise was too much for them to bear. Fortunately they can just complain to the authorities. Your freedom, perfectly protected by the letter of the law. What were you thinking playing a musical instrument near the same area other’s were trying to sleep? It’s now unreasonable that a guitar be played after dark around a camp fire. Absurd right? That campfire guitars would go the way of smoky pool halls, fatty food and hot coffee? The majority has spoken, you amongst them.

Were the shoe on the other foot and saxophone players the majority, would you favor a law, banning hikers from disturbing their performances? Is that what it’s all really about? To just blanket everything with laws, to remove the individual responsibility of protecting our own liberty. That above all else, absolute order must be maintained.

All I mean is it’s essential not to just tolerate, but actually defend our freedom whenever we can, to keep my freedom intact. Even the smallest steps back add up, and the future gets a smaller space each time. They won’t miss, what they never had. Tagged by GPS, within a button push from work, acceptant of search at the drop of the hat, relinquishing all privacy for the greater good and taught above all else, to conform. Maybe my description was too extreme and inaccurate? I don’t think it is.

lalong The saxophonist in Yosemite would have been an anomaly in NY they're as frequent as the beggars.
I'm all for the discussion or debate on the subject. And if a petition is what brings that discussion.... cool democracy in action. But I do love the parks. Where i grew up in Ohio the system is called the Emerald Necklace. Miles upon miles of fishing boating swimming, playgrounds etc... But the greater Cleveland area doesn't have the population of NY so nobody steps on anyone there. I understand the concern over freedoms being chiseled away. But someone may feel the same on the other side of the debate... maybe there has been some growth in the amount of musicians who knows but both sides should be heard. Maybe they can limit time of day or areas so everyone gets some of what they want. I'm sure there is an answer. Don't get me wrong I love street music, but park music... unless it's the Cleveland Orchestra at Blossom Music Center ehh...

When I go to a park I go there to get away from noise.... including rap crap that usually is played loudly in the park by others as they spend time there.

If I wanted to play my guitar in the park, I have a 12volt 200 watt guitar amp I could use. When I have the park to myself, I do play there when I feel like it. But I don't when other people show up because I know others go there for peace and quiet.
I can go anywhere to play other than the park, so I usually go down a country road by one of the rivers around here and find a nice shady spot under a tree and just sit there and pick and enjoy the cool breeze coming off the water on a hot summer day. Besides, the parks are brewski free without permits.

We also have shelter houses here in the parks that can be rented. You can play music there because they are isolated and away from the most scenic parts of the park. Some are open shelters with power, while others are enclosed shelters. Location is the key, but even at that noise has to be kept to a certain level, being respectful to others who are there to enjoy getting away from city noise. That is easy enough to accept.