General Music Chat

I have books.... You might have some of the same ones. Studying the Gnostic and Apochrapha writings you find that the name "Satan" is a Christian creation that means adversary. They were originally refering to any of the fallen. They are also the ones who coined the term "demon" to refer to these beings. They are the same as any other angels, though there was that little matter of a war.... Anyway, the study of these beings and their history is a hobby of mine.

There seem to be two different beings that Christians of modern times are refering to when they say "Satan". One is Beelzebub who was a prince among the angels before the fall. The other is Lucifer, who is the bringer of light and knowlege, and archangel of music. There are some that believe that Lucifer may have been a transformed man, and a King of Babylon, before he was made into an angel.

But.... to answer your original post a little better.... there is no Satanic music. It is a Christian myth, brought about to explain how God's chosen, to be the archangel of music, could be part of the fall.

Thank you Another Travisty,
I agree with most of what you have posted.
I have quite a library myself and have studied such things for over thirty years, including comparative religions (a passion of mine).
I am an ex-member of the Temple of Set and a current Adeptus of the Ordo Luciferi.

I am most interested in the psychological, physiological and pseudo-religious aspects of Music.

I knew this thread would create some controversy, unfortunately there are better Musicians here than Theologists (thank uhmmm . . . ok, God for that!) LOL!

The etymology of the word Satan is not just the Judeo Christian concept of the Adversary, but also the islamic Shaitan. It can be argued they have a common origin as Abraham is the father figure of all three religions and also has a bit of a nod to zoroastrianism.

If you really want to turn this into a deeper, more intelligent discussion of the evolution of religious adversaries and thought, that is a reasonable place to take this thread. Belittling the the beliefs of others, not so much.

The new enlightenment movement as it relates to Satansim is not a luciferian movement. That dates back to the old Hell Fire clubs of the 19th century. It also does not tie directly into the Aleister Crowley anarchist/drug laden hedonistic movements either. The new movement is closely tied to Anton Lavey and his inward facing god movement. The idea of becoming "The Satan" rather than worshiping an external mythical being/beings whom represent satan. The more "serious" writings of a carnival barker.

The idea that the ideas of the old should be wiped away when they no longer suit the world of the young and vibrant.

In that way, much of the rock world is satanic in nature. Not evil, just moves on, taking a piece of the past with it and casting off what does not suit it. That could be used to describe "new" country, rock and Rap. Not counting bands like Deicide, that means music can be considered Satanic from a modern standpoint without being "Devil Music". That would be Shaitanist music. If that word existed.

Just my sleep deprived 2 cents. Bearing in mind I am reading Peter Occhiogrosso's Joy of Sects right now so some of it is fresh in my mind. Correct any time lines I may have screwed up, but the concept is still there.

The etymology of the word Satan is not just the Judeo Christian concept of the Adversary, but also the islamic Shaitan. It can be argued they have a common origin as Abraham is the father figure of all three religions and also has a bit of a nod to zoroastrianism.

Thanks for pointing that out. It was something I was aware of, but skipped rather than explain it. Not meant as a poke at Islam, which I consider a belief system as valid as any of the religions that Abraham is considered the "father" of. I find the belief in the "Jinn" as a fascinating concept in fact.

The rest of your post is thought provoking as well. Very good points....

Cool, now we're getting somewhere!

Satan is a personification of the Judaic word ha-satan (who borrowed it from the Persians' Shaiten) meaning adversary. The word is used more as a descriptive noun or pronoun. A fallen tree preventing a husband from getting to his injured wife would be considered a tree of shaiten, more or less.

Shaiten did not become Satan until much later where Jewish sects / tribes such as the Essenes began referring to anyone not an Essene as ha-satan. Still further the Roman Christian church decided it was time to personify shaiten into Satan and have Him become the scapegoat for all evil in the Christian world.

Lucifer is the god of progress and intellectual inquiry, not only the divine inspiration behind the spiritual enlightenment of the Gnostic and the heretic and the lover of God in all his/her forms.
Through Lucifer's spirit humanity first climbed down from the trees and has represented the flow of progress ever since.

But Lucifer may be more than a metaphor for rebellion, enlightenment and advancement - as the pure creative and motive light, Lucifer may actually be the key to life itself . . .

The DNA within the nuclei of all cells of living creatures contains biophotons or ultra-weak proton emissions - in other words, light!
A dynamic web of light constantly released and absorbed by the DNA connects cells, tissues and organs and serve as the organism's main communication network.

Lucifer is on the move inside you and me, chattering between cell and cell, rousing the cohorts of the life-force, keeping us alive and wonderful. Every man and woman is a star - and now we know we have our own inner light.

- Dr. Elaine Pagels "The Origin of Satan"

Ok not to bust anybody’s chops but amongst the Lucifer definition there is one missing, when I was little and my grandfather who spoke little English and a lot of Italian used to send me to fetch the Lucifer’s box to light up the charcoal in the BBQ. In other words a box of Lucifer in Italian is a matchbox which ties in the concept light, enlightenment etc.

Hate to bring such lofty theological conversation to the level of a kitchen utensil but life works that way, it’s just that people tend to take the mundane and turn it into something pseudo intellectual priests, evangelists, rabbis, Pontiffs, pastors are masters at that (BTW Pastor in Italian means sheepherder and Pontiff means Bridge builder) as for Satan being an obstacle to complete a task?… Well some religion call it “Murphy’s Law”, in my religion we call it “Oh sh!t”

Humanity has many cultures but humans are bound together by common experiences how these experiences and the protagonist that caused them chose to call these experiences? It depends on the culture one is born in (See Greek mythology, Mayan, Aztec etc.)

Just to keep it musical I play this post in C. major

Ok not to bust anybody’s chops but amongst the Lucifer definition there is one missing, when I was little and my grandfather who spoke little English and a lot of Italian used to send me to fetch the Lucifer’s box to light up the charcoal in the BBQ. In other words a box of Lucifer in Italian is a matchbox which ties in the concept light, enlightenment etc.

Hate to bring such lofty theological conversation to the level of a kitchen utensil but life works that way, it’s just that people tend to take the mundane and turn it into something pseudo intellectual priests, evangelists, rabbis, Pontiffs, pastors are masters at that (BTW Pastor in Italian means sheepherder and Pontiff means Bridge builder) as for Satan being an obstacle to complete a task?… Well some religion call it “Murphy’s Law”, in my religion we call it “Oh sh!t”

Humanity has many cultures but humans are bound together by common experiences how these experiences and the protagonist that caused them chose to call these experiences? It depends on the culture one is born in (See Greek mythology, Mayan, Aztec etc.)

Just to keep it musical I play this post in C. major

Perhaps of interest to you is that the ancient Italian religion of Witchcraft / Stregheria (le Vecchia Religione) honors the Roman god Lucifer and the Roman goddess Diana.

I only have one God. Notice how my God gets a capital letter? Funny how universal that is when people are talking about fictitious deities and how God gets the big one.

I only have one God. Notice how my God gets a capital letter? Funny how universal that is when people are talking about fictitious deities and how God gets the big one.

It's called ego . . . lol!
Typically, when one is writing about gods in general the word is not capitalized, on the other hand if a specific god is being written about it is usually capitalized.

Perhaps of interest to you is that the ancient Italian religion of Witchcraft / Stregheria (le Vecchia Religione) honors the Roman god Lucifer and the Roman goddess Diana.

There is no Roman god Lucifer, or maybe you're just being funny. You're referring to the Stregoneria which is the Italian version of someone practicing dark magic. It's been used intermittently with Stregheria to the point where it's become very convoluted. Plus over the years the Stregoneria has been blended with Christianity in a way that American Voodoo has, and when you get down to the shimmy of it, there's a bunch of arguing between everyone as to which way is up. Pagans argue just as much as Christians do about the semantics of their practice, and what's funny, there is no ancient written book on it or any other form of witchcraft because if anyone would have been found with such an item, they would've been burned at the stake. Much of what we know today was passed down through word of mouth and bits and pieces that people have been able to piece together through writings. The point is, energy is very powerful stuff, so all the arguing in the world isn't going to change that. There isn't anything in an "ancient" text that if one sat still and got quiet can't listen and get direction.

Chaeya

Perhaps of interest to you is that the ancient Italian religion of Witchcraft / Stregheria (le Vecchia Religione) honors the Roman god Lucifer and the Roman goddess Diana.

There is no Roman god Lucifer, or maybe you're just being funny. You're referring to the Stregoneria which is the Italian version of someone practicing dark magic. It's been used intermittently with Stregheria to the point where it's become very convoluted. Plus over the years the Stregoneria has been blended with Christianity in a way that American Voodoo has, and when you get down to the shimmy of it, there's a bunch of arguing between everyone as to which way is up. Pagans argue just as much as Christians do about the semantics of their practice, and what's funny, there is no ancient written book on it or any other form of witchcraft because if anyone would have been found with such an item, they would've been burned at the stake. Much of what we know today was passed down through word of mouth and bits and pieces that people have been able to piece together through writings. The point is, energy is very powerful stuff, so all the arguing in the world isn't going to change that. There isn't anything in an "ancient" text that if one sat still and got quiet can't listen and get direction.

Chaeya

Lucifer is the son of the Roman God Aurora, his Greek name is Phospheros and /or Hesperos. In Roman Religion, he is a minor god, God of the Morning Star, Lucifer is Latin for 'Light Bearer' and a Roman deity associated with the planet Venus, which was known as Lucifer in Roman astrology before Venus, daughter of Jupiter, was promoted from Goddess of vegetation to Goddess of love and beauty with the planet renamed in her honor.

Stregheria: Italian word for the religion of the Witches
Strega/Female - Stregone/Male - Stregoneria in modern Italian means "to enchant" it is a Nature religion that embraces a Masculine/Feminine concept of deity, it is the forces of Nature personified as gods and goddesses. Viewed as equal but different manifestations of Divine Consciousness.

In the 14th Century Italy, a Wise Woman called Aradia revived the Old Religion, known as La Vecchia Religione. Aridian Tradition was established in North America and is a blending of three Etruscan Traditions: Fannara, northern Italy Keepers of the Earth Mysteries, Jannara, central Italy Keepers of the Lunar Mysteries, Tanarra, central Italy keepers of the Stellar Mysteries.

La Vecchia Religione is Pre-Christian: it simply means "the old religion"
700 B.C.: Hesiod, in his Theogony, speaks of the Witch, Circe
30 B.C.: Roman poet Horace in his Epodes of Horace associated Witches with the goddess Diana in a mystery cult. Professor Carlo Ginzburg, author of Night Battles: Witchcraft and Agrarian Cults in the 16th & 17th Centuries, and Ecstasies: Deciphering the Witches' Sabbath, presents compelling evidence of Witchcraft as the survival of a hidden shamanistic culture that flourished across the European continent (and England) for thousands of years.

Yes, but it's not the same Lucifer that is referenced in Christianity, it was just the name was borrowed. And I know what the Aradia is, I'm looking at it from where I sit, I also have other books by Charles Leland. It became a sort of bible for witches which all these different sects arguing what is and what isn't about it. I've read it, the writings of Israel Regardie, Eliphas Levi, Dr. John Dee, Aleister Crowley and Dion Fortune. I've been studying this stuff for over 25 years, to the point where I'm beyond all this little quoting what this guy said or that guy and most of it is mis-quoted or taken out of context. When you read enough of it, you begin to read between the lines and follow your own way.

Outside of this god, that goddess and so on, I will tell you this, the truth lies no further than your own heart. There comes a point where the books fall away and your inner knowledge takes over, and you have no desire or need to argue semantics with anyone because your path is your own. When I need to know something, I know it, when I need to do something, I have what I need to accomplish it.

I believe that all the gods and goddesses were real people at some point and their lives were turned into stories that became myths. All these civilizations began to borrow from each other and intermingle them with their own stories. For instance, Shiva was one of the "gods" who came to me and helped me out of my darkest time, and he led me to a book that was written about his life as a human man. I learned a lot simply from reading a "fictional" account of one man's thought into the life of Shiva. There was so much wisdom in that book that inspired me. It wasn't some ancient text, something a bunch of historians or people were telling me I ought to read. In fact, I wouldn't even recommend the book to my friends. It was meant for me, the messages in there were meant for me to see. I've gotten more from reading lesser known obscure texts than I have from reading all these well-known books that have done little for me.

So you follow your path and I'll follow mine. If you want to think you're right and I'm wrong, go ahead, friend. Peace.

Chaeya

Yes, but it's not the same Lucifer that is referenced in Christianity, it was just the name was borrowed. And I know what the Aradia is, I'm looking at it from where I sit, I also have other books by Charles Leland. It became a sort of bible for witches which all these different sects arguing what is and what isn't about it. I've read it, the writings of Israel Regardie, Eliphas Levi, Dr. John Dee, Aleister Crowley and Dion Fortune. I've been studying this stuff for over 25 years, to the point where I'm beyond all this little quoting what this guy said or that guy and most of it is mis-quoted or taken out of context. When you read enough of it, you begin to read between the lines and follow your own way.

Outside of this god, that goddess and so on, I will tell you this, the truth lies no further than your own heart. There comes a point where the books fall away and your inner knowledge takes over, and you have no desire or need to argue semantics with anyone because your path is your own. When I need to know something, I know it, when I need to do something, I have what I need to accomplish it.

I believe that all the gods and goddesses were real people at some point and their lives were turned into stories that became myths. All these civilizations began to borrow from each other and intermingle them with their own stories. For instance, Shiva was one of the "gods" who came to me and helped me out of my darkest time, and he led me to a book that was written about his life as a human man. I learned a lot simply from reading a "fictional" account of one man's thought into the life of Shiva. There was so much wisdom in that book that inspired me. It wasn't some ancient text, something a bunch of historians or people were telling me I ought to read. In fact, I wouldn't even recommend the book to my friends. It was meant for me, the messages in there were meant for me to see. I've gotten more from reading lesser known obscure texts than I have from reading all these well-known books that have done little for me.

So you follow your path and I'll follow mine. If you want to think you're right and I'm wrong, go ahead, friend. Peace.

Chaeya

Very cool Chaeya, it's nice to meet a fellow occultist (over 30 yrs myself)

Personally, I am not of the belief in gods, demons, angels, djinn etc. I agree with C. Jung that they are all archetypes stuffed deep within our unconsciousness made manifest through symbology sometimes in the form of mythology and personification through an actual person as you stated.

As for Lucifer in the christian sense, I don't believe Christianity has a good concept of a Luciferian Principle, certainly the Gnostic Christians did.

Reference is made to the title Lucifer / Morningstar in describing the Babylonian King and actually Jesus refers to Himself as the Morningstar, which is rather interesting.

Em hotep
EM

Someone sounds like they have been playing too much Dungeons and Dragons.. LOL

Don't admit it to anyone, ever.. You'll never hear the end of it.

Well met, indeed. After leaving Christianity in my teens, I took off on a journey of exploring other faiths and religions, and I began to see how much was borrowed and usurped from other religions to the point. Then with the rebirth of the new age movement (which really began in the late 1800s and kind of rose up and down from there, reviving again in the 60s and again in the 80s, I sucked up books like they were food in my search. I had friends who were in the OTO, druids (ones who wore animal skins and all), and I met some bona fide shaman in my travels. It has been a very interesting journey. But what kind of let me down was I found the same arguing about how to do things, how to believe, which god and goddess represented what.

However, I found myself the most drawn to the writings of Krishnamurti and Jung and his works with archetypes. In fact, I developed a workshop for women working with feminine archetypes and how to use them in your everyday life. I never did it because I didn't like how 15 years ago, everything became so goddess-oriented to the point of blech! I'd like to include the male archetypes as well. I kind of brushed away Roman mythology in favor of Greek and Hindu. I have recently started up classes again in Wicca again just to get back in touch because I've always simply practiced my own way, but it's nice to be around others who share your beliefs, so I like the fellowship. We've been referring to the Aradia a lot. I like how things have become more you do what's comfortable for you instead of a long time ago you had people "no you must do it this way." Regardless of your beliefs, energy is energy and you direct and use it how you will.

I feel the rest we could share would probably have to happen off this thread.

Chaeya

(Cue incense smoke and the gong..) lol