General Music Chat

Those who speak the same language read the same book. Therefore we are discussing the aspects of the book in relationship to the beliefs in that book.
Consequently, for arguments sake, if a monkey were to have written it, your statement is still not in context with the discussion. The book is the basis of the discussion, and the words referenced to it by those who believe it ,not who wrote it.

What you left out in your thought process is the fact that you have to have faith to accept it. Without faith, it is merely a book, and subject to anyones interpretation. And a monkey could have written it in the minds eye of the skeptic.

At least if a monkey wrote it there'd be some legitimate "miracle" behind it.

"At least if a monkey wrote it there'd be some legitimate "miracle" behind it."[quote]

But I thought you guys believe you came from monkeys. Am I missing something here?

"At least if a monkey wrote it there'd be some legitimate "miracle" behind it."

But I thought you guys believe you came from monkeys. Am I missing something here?

Yeah, a couple years of science class. Evolution doesn't quite work like that.

For you DE-Evolutionists out there I'll try to put this in order for you:

This is what you think-


When this is what is meant-


You see... Evolutionists HAVE FAITH AND PROOF that we evolved from common ancestors, not that we evolved from Apes.

You have a book and a guilty conscious. Its a good book full of wisdom and truths... but I have yet to see any PROOF its anything other than the history of the Jewish race (Old Testament) or the Life of Jesus Christ as the 4 councils that whittled 73 texts down to 27 books to agree on and call the foundation of Christianity.

So you enjoy your faith, and I'll use the wits God gave me to decide what to trust in.

By the way, you do realize Jesus was a socialist, right?

*edited to fix huge pic throwing off posts

I usually stay out of religious discussions, it all too often leads to arguments and ruffled feathers but I'll throw this in for consideration, take it as you will.

There is only one sentence in the bible that matters to me, and it covers everything else.

Treat other people they way you would like them to treat you.

The rest is all written by humans, that sentence too, and is therefore questionable. But that is the best advice I've ever seen, and if you think about it, that one sentence covers all the ten commandments, the seven deadly sins etc.

The so called "leaders" of this world have obviously never considered that one sentence. If they had, war would not exist. The dreadful state of our economy would never have happened. The loss of our rights would never have even been considered. and we wouldn't have a thousand idiots in the white house...or more...

Being a faithful evolutionist, I am a weird breed. Long before the intelligent design crowd came into popularity, I was comparing Junior High biology with the bible.

I beleive in the parable of the story of creation. How yould you explain the rapid expansion of energy and light as a higher being when dealing with shepards? Would you speak of near infinite density and mass occupying one instable point or would you say the void was filled and God said let there be light? Would you speak of billions of years of coalescing matter and energies into suns, stars, planets and galaxies? Or would you say the void was filled and earth (solids) brought up from the void and the sea? There are concepts were were not yet ready for. The seven day concept was a way to divide the time into a concept that could be grasped. What is seven days to an infinite force?

Would you say that a blissful near animal almost ready for prime time primate forebears came out of the forrest and was self aware or would you say we ate from the tree of knowldge of good and evil?

And this is just the bible's version. There are, when compared to the evidence as we know it, many signs that in the past there were insights, possibly devinely inspired, into god's tool box. Angels, the messengers of god, come down to teach us. There are many ways to interpret this. Either way they spoke the language of the period.

I go further with my thoughts on it for myself. Most religions agree we were formed (im my case, over time) in th image of God. Well, the primary modern vision of God has been warped by a patriarchal view. I am more apt to belive we came from a binary point of origin. We are a species that can create life by the joining of our two parts. Man and Woman. God seeded the fertile corporeal universe with his seed but it took the feminine nurture to bring that life into flesh and spirit combination we have now. Thus we have in popular religion (Those of father Abraham and moses) half the story. (Judeaism, Islam and Christianity have a common origin with a tie in to zoroastrianism). The golden rule referenced before traces it's origins thousands of years prior to Jesus in the east.

So I am on a constant search to find not only the Father side of creation, but the Feminine aspect. This may be because that is the type of life that has come to dominate easily observable nature... but what else do I have?

So... there ya go.

Whoa, All too heady for me. from Class warfare to God. I don't know if a man or a monkey wrote the bible and I'm not really sure if I'm rich or poor.
I do like monkeys though.

As for the class warfare part: That is the state-ist tool to keep us squabling while we are slowly losing rights.

A peasant would tell you that his life sucks so the rich must be brought down as well.

A free citizen will see that improving the life of everyone will help us all. Rich and poor. AKA- rising tide lifts all boats.

I do not begrudge the rich thier money and success. Quite the opposite. I work to get there too. I have often stolen a quote I do not remember the originator of: "A poor man never gave me a job". I can not improve the life of anyone if I am working to destroy the success of others. I can improve the lives of others if I work to improve my own.

Thus self interest, profit and success are not evil.

I'm with ya BB, an odd breed. I am a creationist Agnostic. I believe in a God... it is certainly beyond our comprehension and the source of all life and positive energy in the Universe.

Class wars are directly related to Religion in the fact that both require a "flock of sheep" that require a higher being to guide them thru life.

I personally believe more towards the "free will = personal responsibility" school of thought. Each of us should strive to produce more of our own energy and food than we do, which would reduce the stranglehold of "Big Business" in our lives.

Wealth should not be measured by a portfolio or bank account, health and happiness are better indicators of wealth in my flawed mind.

And... Monkeys are funny.

As for the class warfare part: That is the state-ist tool to keep us squabling while we are slowly losing rights.

A peasant would tell you that his life sucks so the rich must be brought down as well.

A free citizen will see that improving the life of everyone will help us all. Rich and poor. AKA- rising tide lifts all boats.

I do not begrudge the rich thier money and success. Quite the opposite. I work to get there too. I have often stolen a quote I do not remember the originator of: "A poor man never gave me a job". I can not improve the life of anyone if I am working to destroy the success of others. I can improve the lives of others if I work to improve my own.

Thus self interest, profit and success are not evil.

I guess you never heard the Golden Rule, "Whoever has the gold makes the rules." And they've re-written the rules in their favor.

I have no interest in "bringing down" anybody. But, wealth is power. And it is often abused at the expense of those with too little of it.

Everybody Does Better When Everybody Does Better
http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&cd=1&sqi=2&ved=0CBMQFjAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.rinconucc.org%2FPortals%2F385%2FVan%2520Kuiken%2520Sermons%2FEveryone%2520Does%2520Better%2520When%2520Everyone%2520Does%2520Better.pdf&ei=CYIfTebtIsSkngeexKiXDg&usg=AFQjCNGzFQRZ3wTPeshW1U0ADZdPev3N4w

The bible brings more questions to my mind, than answers. It's good for that. as any religious text should be. They are there to make one think...about ethics, mostly, imho. There are always a lot of superfluous stuff in there that ppl will add to any religious tome, & it is up to me to pick & choose that which I will accept, & that which I will not. But questions linger...

For example - if god would "harden a man's heart" toward anything or anyone, then that, imho, is meddling in areas where man is SUPPOSED to have free will to choose as he wishes, & goes against the entire basis of every man's relationship with god. The mere fact that the man meddled with is "one o' THEM" has no bearing on the matter. THEY also have free will to choose their own relationship with the creator, do they not? So how can they be so manipulated & then damned by this deity? Sounds like political bullshit, written as a"reliable" religious history source, to me.

Example - out of all the ppl mentioned in the bible, only one man is described as being "most beloved by god," & that man is David. This makes zero sense to me, since he did everything he possibly could to oppose god's will throughout most of his life. He didn't even have Jesus to save him from his sins, or to choose as a savior. Oh, sure, he was so sorry after the fact of his actions, but aren't we all, when faced with the repercussions of what we do? How is David so much more deserving of love than Lot, who stayed TRUE through his life, though he was TOYED with by god?

The creation myth? Eh...I have far more important questions about it all than that one. I can accept the alien intervention theory as easily as I can anything else, & I find it all very fascinating, but I always return to that most pragmatic of questions, when dealing with this stuff - What is most likely to have happened? Judging by what has gone before & after the events in the bible, as described by other societies, many of whom have no relation to the judeo/christian/moslem model, I have to take the bible with a grain of salt.

Now wait a second... why do we seek to be "Rich"? Is that better than middle class or out of debt?

Doesn't the Christ tell us its better to give to the poor than hoard wealth? I recall a verse about it being easier for a camel to pass thru the eye of a needle than for a rich man to get into the Lord's Kingdom.

Greed is no virtue and a distortion of America's promise. We were promised the freedom to pursuit happiness, not a Lexus and a diamond studded cell phone case.

Discard your envy of the rich and stop allowing them to pervert our laws of fairness and equality in the hopes you too will someday join them above the serfs and scoundrels.

That is a "lure" to keep you docile while 2% of the nation controls 50% of the wealth and ALL of the government.

I'm surprised that I go away to build some guitars
and this is already on the 2nd page. I'm also surprised
that so many were sympathetic to it. It's getting hard no
matter what side of the political coin you're on , to deny
that certain elements in the society are "after"
the common guy,
the working man, and the poor especially.

The more I see as this political cycle continues,
the more I see that people think of politics with
their gut and not their heads. And the gut is very
hard to change. And many times the gut doesn't
see reality clearly, it just sees through the filter of
the events that led up to this moment.
And we're all guilty of it.....

So what becomes of this? Revolution, Class warfare?
I doubt it. We're still doing OK compared to the rest
of the world and it's going to take a lot to push
Americans to see through the propaganda and
actually bring about real change....
Instead of the change that big business has pushed us into...
Time will tell....

The answer is not a simple one Phil. Its as different as everyone of our current, personal situations. But these answers are only a band-aid. I think, when the dust settles, there will be a major downward mobility that people will have to learn to live with, unless they act out in one way or another. The 60's generation of middle-class youth dropped out of society to underscore their beliefs. What is holding back today's generation?.....The "Whatever" generation that dosnt mind living with mom and pop at age 25? (I've been on my own since 17, not braggin', but wondering.) Do people today have the balls to drop out?

It's become virtually impossible to "drop out," with our modern parameters, Scratchy. Costs, combined with the world of high finance, coupled with the technologies of today - you cannot escape like you could 40-50 years ago. Try to get an apartment to live in without a security/credit check. Try to get a job without a drug test/security/credit check. It's become very difficult, at best, not to work & live within the confines of our 'new society.'

That basically means, no balls.

Hippies lived outside of society, created their own. Lived without bank accounts, off the land or in communes, with no identities that the gov. could trace....especially if they were skipping the draft. They mananged to influence politics, lifestyles, music, ecology, and opened new realms of religious beliefs for Westerners.
Today, many are successful businessmen and politicians themselves. But US history will always document the "Love Generation". Who will care about the "Wii - xBox" generation in 50 years?????