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No. Klug, "Performance rights" actually cover air play, NOT just the studio performance time. this was a recent addition to the copyright law that I am in total agreement with. Those poor guys who performed (& WROTE, in many cases) all those Motown hits were NOT covered, in the old system, even though they played on more #1 hits than any single act i the history of music.
SMILE - it's the safest way to spread your cheeks!
My understanding of it is that unless you own a piece of that copyrighted material (i.e., lyrics, etc.), everything else falls under arrangement: Bass lines, drum parts, lead guitar and so on.
I had a bass player a while back try to convince me that he couldn't perform my bass lines (for me in my show)-because I could sue him for copyright infringement. That was his set up. His next argument was that, since he had to create his own bass lines, he had essentially added something "new" to the song-and by doing so, contributed to the "writing" of the material-and gave him rights to royalties!
I can be a pretty dumb guy, but I ain't that dumb.
The bottom line, I believe, is whether or not FD's bass lines are an essential part of the song (which unfortunately would probably end up in court). Ownership is a funny thing, and it's best to have it in writing beforehand...not to beat that point to death-I've regretted many decisions based on trust.
I had a bass player a while back try to convince me that he couldn't perform my bass lines (for me in my show)-because I could sue him for copyright infringement. That was his set up. His next argument was that, since he had to create his own bass lines, he had essentially added something "new" to the song-and by doing so, contributed to the "writing" of the material-and gave him rights to royalties!
I can be a pretty dumb guy, but I ain't that dumb.
The bottom line, I believe, is whether or not FD's bass lines are an essential part of the song (which unfortunately would probably end up in court). Ownership is a funny thing, and it's best to have it in writing beforehand...not to beat that point to death-I've regretted many decisions based on trust.
"Welcome to the show, I'll be your host."
joseph6 wrote:My understanding of it is that unless you own a piece of that copyrighted material (i.e., lyrics, etc.), everything else falls under arrangement: Bass lines, drum parts, lead guitar and so on.
I had a bass player a while back try to convince me that he couldn't perform my bass lines (for me in my show)-because I could sue him for copyright infringement. That was his set up. His next argument was that, since he had to create his own bass lines, he had essentially added something "new" to the song-and by doing so, contributed to the "writing" of the material-and gave him rights to royalties!
I can be a pretty dumb guy, but I ain't that dumb.
The bottom line, I believe, is whether or not FD's bass lines are an essential part of the song (which unfortunately would probably end up in court). Ownership is a funny thing, and it's best to have it in writing beforehand...not to beat that point to death-I've regretted many decisions based on trust.
That falls under the heading of 'negotiating', which is an art; in of it itself, that I hate to deal with, and don't have patience for. Nowadays, you can get tabs written up right off your computer, your bass player plays them, as written....not infringement. And I would not work with someone who thinks the way that bass player does.
ScratchyGuitar at Gmail dot com
Oh, c'mon guys! Arrangements cannot be copyrighted. Chord progressions can't be, either. Bass lines, IF they are a lead melody line, CAN be, provided they are protected by a copyright. If they are part of an arrangement, then, no, they cannot.
Performance rights have nothing to do with the actual writing of a song. What it means is that, as your performance gets continual air play &/or recording sales, you get paid a pittance for that performance. I say "continual," because the pay rate is so small that you can only make money at it if there are a lot of sales &/or airings of the piece you worked on. It's nothing near the rate that the composer gets, or the main act, if you are just a supporting player to someone like Billy Joel.
Yes, Klugmo, backing players ARE covered by this addition to copyright law.
Performance rights have nothing to do with the actual writing of a song. What it means is that, as your performance gets continual air play &/or recording sales, you get paid a pittance for that performance. I say "continual," because the pay rate is so small that you can only make money at it if there are a lot of sales &/or airings of the piece you worked on. It's nothing near the rate that the composer gets, or the main act, if you are just a supporting player to someone like Billy Joel.
Yes, Klugmo, backing players ARE covered by this addition to copyright law.
SMILE - it's the safest way to spread your cheeks!
You are all making alot of sense. I had not been able to put it to words before, but I now see that what really matters is: are my own unique bass lines essential to the songs?
There is a song that I just play the bass line the songwriter played on the piano with his left hand. That is obviously all his.
Asking if my own original riffs and grooves influence the rythm and sound on most of my band's songs is like asking what influence Geezer Butler had in Sabbath.
I am not claiming to be the next Geezer
, but his riffs are essential to the sound of the band.
Most of the songs had no bass line or a wierd, lame one that did nothing for the song. Where there was nothing, there is now a bass melody.
They know what I can do. They auditioned me and liked what they heard. They brought me out to the mansion to meet the Godfather (manager). They asked me to be a full time member. They made it clear that they needed me to make this band my top priority above any other gigs. But try to talk numbers and they laugh and say "what percentage of zero do you want, because so far the songs have made nothing".
That makes no sense to me. Do we fight it out later so only the lawyers are smiling?
There is a song that I just play the bass line the songwriter played on the piano with his left hand. That is obviously all his.
Asking if my own original riffs and grooves influence the rythm and sound on most of my band's songs is like asking what influence Geezer Butler had in Sabbath.
I am not claiming to be the next Geezer
, but his riffs are essential to the sound of the band.
Most of the songs had no bass line or a wierd, lame one that did nothing for the song. Where there was nothing, there is now a bass melody.
They know what I can do. They auditioned me and liked what they heard. They brought me out to the mansion to meet the Godfather (manager). They asked me to be a full time member. They made it clear that they needed me to make this band my top priority above any other gigs. But try to talk numbers and they laugh and say "what percentage of zero do you want, because so far the songs have made nothing".
That makes no sense to me. Do we fight it out later so only the lawyers are smiling?
Last edited by FunkDealer on Tue Dec 21, 2010 7:12 am, edited 1 time in total.
"That makes no sense to me. Do we fight it out later so only the lawyers are smiling?"
You seem to be the type to hear people talking, but you're not listening to what they are saying. If I were a "Gecko", I would make a lot of money out of you. And your lawyers would be drinking Margaritas with me on Montauk Long Island.
You seem to be the type to hear people talking, but you're not listening to what they are saying. If I were a "Gecko", I would make a lot of money out of you. And your lawyers would be drinking Margaritas with me on Montauk Long Island.
ScratchyGuitar at Gmail dot com
Scratchy wrote:"That makes no sense to me. Do we fight it out later so only the lawyers are smiling?"
You seem to be the type to hear people talking, but you're not listening to what they are saying. If I were a "Gecko", I would make a lot of money out of you. And your lawyers would be drinking Margaritas with me on Montauk Long Island.
I am listening to you, but yep-you are right, I am not hearing you say anything.
If for no other reason, talk to an attorney who specializes in these issues to get some clarity. Surely that is worth $100.
In my own experience I did some recording and session work in the 70s and 80s for which I was given a credit and a performance fee. No royalties or residuals. Some of those songs and jingles did get airplay and broadcast TV exposure but sadly, no gold records or Grammys. At the time I accepted session work fees as payment in full with no claim to future earnings.
One final question: Is being in a band that ignores your questions and concerns about money and performance rights really where you want to be?
In my own experience I did some recording and session work in the 70s and 80s for which I was given a credit and a performance fee. No royalties or residuals. Some of those songs and jingles did get airplay and broadcast TV exposure but sadly, no gold records or Grammys. At the time I accepted session work fees as payment in full with no claim to future earnings.
One final question: Is being in a band that ignores your questions and concerns about money and performance rights really where you want to be?
Cajundaddy
You have no rights for copyright, playing or coming up with a bass line for a song ... sorry thats not how the indusrty works.
If management wants to give you points on the LP .. well that's up to you.
I always take the money ... I get a $100 per song ... and no points. I may get arranging credits if I add a chord here and there ... put some pushes in or WHY to juice up the song ... but again no points ... I get extra money for that. I'm not saying you are worth $100 per song, you may only be worth $50 ... it depends on how much studio experience you have and how fast and well you can track the songs. I have done 12 songs (3 takes on each) in less than 8 hrs, all original and never heard them before I hit the studio ... so $1200 is cheep.
If it's a LP that's a band effort, then everyone in the band gets points and no pay ... but this sound like it's the lead singers gig ... so everyone needs to be paid, that plays on the LP or sign a waiver that they don't want to be paid ... and they will do it for the exposure. It's also in the best interest of the lead singer and management to pay everyone so there are no lawsuits in the future regarding money. ... you're just a hired player.
DO NOT go into the studio and start tracking before an agreement has be reached .... or you'll end up suing ... and there's no money in that.
If management wants to give you points on the LP .. well that's up to you.
I always take the money ... I get a $100 per song ... and no points. I may get arranging credits if I add a chord here and there ... put some pushes in or WHY to juice up the song ... but again no points ... I get extra money for that. I'm not saying you are worth $100 per song, you may only be worth $50 ... it depends on how much studio experience you have and how fast and well you can track the songs. I have done 12 songs (3 takes on each) in less than 8 hrs, all original and never heard them before I hit the studio ... so $1200 is cheep.
If it's a LP that's a band effort, then everyone in the band gets points and no pay ... but this sound like it's the lead singers gig ... so everyone needs to be paid, that plays on the LP or sign a waiver that they don't want to be paid ... and they will do it for the exposure. It's also in the best interest of the lead singer and management to pay everyone so there are no lawsuits in the future regarding money. ... you're just a hired player.
DO NOT go into the studio and start tracking before an agreement has be reached .... or you'll end up suing ... and there's no money in that.
The Johnny7band wrote:
KA-POW! You nailed it there.
FunkDealer wrote:
That's pretty dismissive-and suspicious. Realistically, their intentions seem to be to make money at this. It's only logical to want to know beforehand what your share is going to be. After all, you're not asking for dollar amounts-only percentages. How hard is it to say "you get 12% of the profits"?. Honestly, I'm really not trying to influence you, but this "deal" seems awful fishy.
One final question: Is being in a band that ignores your questions and concerns about money and performance rights really where you want to be?
KA-POW! You nailed it there.
FunkDealer wrote:
But try to talk numbers and they laugh and say "what percentage of zero do you want, because so far the songs have made nothing".
That's pretty dismissive-and suspicious. Realistically, their intentions seem to be to make money at this. It's only logical to want to know beforehand what your share is going to be. After all, you're not asking for dollar amounts-only percentages. How hard is it to say "you get 12% of the profits"?. Honestly, I'm really not trying to influence you, but this "deal" seems awful fishy.
"Welcome to the show, I'll be your host."
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