General Music Chat

No doubt. Thanks for playing!

I thought I would share this reap with y'all from back in the 70s. I am sure you all remember it. Well, maybe not...enjoy

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jGSZ-c2C ... ure=autofb

Back to the original post.

I like some rap.

That song Mama Says Knock You Out by LL Cool J still knocks me out.

Go to a dance club and see how many people dont like rap, just because it isnt your taste doesnt mean they dont have talent. How many rock bands have incorporated elements of rap into thier sounds. Red Hot Chili Peppers come to mind right off the bat. Now that doesnt mean that I listen to alot of rap, just in moderation.

I like some rap.

That song Mama Says Knock You Out by LL Cool J still knocks me out.

The acoustic version he did on MTV Unplugged was even better. He said he felt like he was playing with James Brown's group.

Meat Puppets - Sam

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SEuWE_pm5O4

Who told you you could get all eloquent on us cap?

Cap?!

CAP?! :shock:

I assume this is a galactic mistaken identity.

Well, I've been thinking about changing my username and avatar. This definitely confirms it's probably about time to get that done.

DOH! My bad my bad. It really is the space avatar.

Take this for what it's worth.

I once hated, I mean REALLY hated rap. Any kind of rap, even after a lot was merged with what is now known as Hip Hop. I hated it all.

Then, a couple of years ago, I took some classes and learned the history of rap development as an art form.

Turns out I knew very little about it, and understood even less of its purpose.

Now I'm not going to get into a long history lesson about the topic here, but I will bring up one particular point that really hit home with me.

Think about the most common complaints that you hear (or even utter yourself), about Rap. Then think about how many of the exact same things were once uttered by many musicians, composers and artists, about the Blues.

About Rock 'n Roll.

Were they really fair?

"Rap Music" does seem to be a contradiction in terms sometimes, but by this time it should be fairly clear that Rap AND music can and often are combined. Sure, the vast majority of the music was originally generated with MIDI, and involved NO human musicians, but today a lot of the same pieces that were purely midi are now being performed by some extremely accomplished musicians.

Why is that? Why is it that an art form that seems so simplistic from a musical standpoint, is respected enough by some of the best musicians out there? What do they see in it that many of us don't?

The answer is that Rap is a communicative art form. Its end purpose is the same as music's, but executed much more simplistically. And, it's a far more ancient form. Also, nothing about Rap evolved from Western European culture. It has since been merged by many artists with music from everywhere on Earth.

Right, the whole point of Rap is to "leave out the melody," because it's the words that matter most. Quite the opposite of what whites of European descent did with Jazz and the blues. We COMPLICATED the blues to the point of words meaning next to nothing, with melody, ambiance and the music taking precedence over lyrical meaning. The overall EFFECT became more important than the words, to the point that most listeners no longer cared much what the words meant, considering them "incidental," or, debated over the meaning ad naseum when in reality (in many cases) no such meaning existed.

Sure, there are "nonsense" rap songs, as there are in any genre, but the vast majority of Rap I've heard so far contains a clear message that requires no debate to interpret.

There is one other element intrinsic to its development that I feel a little funny bringing up because I'm NOT black, and the few black friends I have had grew up in fairly white middle class environment. So I'm not exactly an insider expert when it comes to this stuff, but this is what I've read.

American minority music has been picked up, adapted and hijacked by whites of European descent at every turn. Jazz became Swing, the Blues gave way to Rock and Metal (among many other sub genres primarily consumed by whites), and Funk became Disco (eeeewwwww! ) Rap has often been touted as the one form of black music that is to this day still considered to be primarily a "black art form."

It's NOT rock. It's NOT Jazz. It's NOT classical. It isn't anything that any form of music is or ever was. It isn't really MUSIC either, because it can be performed entirely with nothing but a background beat, and no melody.

If you listen to a lot of it, you'll find that a great deal of it contains some of the very same elements that early Rock and Roll did. Self promotion being one of the most obvious. Remember back in the early Fifties how many artists made sure their NAMES were in their song lyrics? Who does that now in Rock? Rock and Roll's purpose (before it was called rock and roll, and nobody WHITE was playing it), served many of the same purposes that Rap does now. Boogie-Woogie and Rock and Roll were, in comparison to most other music being played at the time, very simplistic, and very easy to play.

Rap is just the next logical evolutionary (or devolutionary if you prefer ~ but I prefer to call it "revolutionary") step in the process of a people to develop something uniquely their own, that would either remain entirely their own, or, if it were adapted by others those others would forever be seen as becoming more like them, more so than their art form being adapted and changed practically beyond recognition.

When we (white folks I mean) say "Rock," we tend to think "Beatles, the British invasion, and everything that came from that," rather than, "An art form whites developed from earlier black music.

How many rock bands can you think of that, when you look at them, you think, "Hey, they're all dressing and acting like blacks?!"

How many white Rap artists can you think of that are NOT thought of that way?

That said, how many of us whites maybe don't like Rap for that reason, subconsciously, as much if not more than for the fact that it's less musically oriented than other art forms?

Remember when our parents complained about the way we dressed in the Seventies because it was so heavily influenced by Hippie styles? How many of us are just as turned off by white kids that dress in rapper styles today? How much does that discomfort affect how we think of Rap itself as an art form?

Is it just as much subliminal prejudices as it is supposedly legitimate complaints about musical merit?

As I said, I used to dislike Rap for the same reasons pretty much every other white person I know. Now though, I've come to understand that Rap isn't supposed to be "all about the music." Its end purpose is similar (communication and drawing people together), but its execution and how it is used to accomplish that purpose is entirely different. Musical elements are secondary.

Whatever we think of it though, Rap does manage to do what its designed to do just as well as what we whites qualify as "music." It just does it for different people.

And that, to me, is value.

Also, I don't think it's fair to say that Rap doesn't require talent. The talent is does require though, is very different from the kinds of talent we are accustomed to.

All I can say is that if you really believe that talent and Rap don't go together, try writing and performing some Rap sometime, and see how well it's received. I've tried, and I've been humbled by the guys who are really good at it. It's not as easy as a lot of people believe it is.

You say it so well!

So I uploaded an old pop/rock song of mine from about 1999. Track 5 - "I cant believe you" It has a bridge with a rap. The second time through I sing/rap it. Is it music? Is the first half of the bridge not music because it's not AS melodious? There are notes. They do have different pitches. The second half has way more melody and even a rapped/sung harmony. To some it would be rapping to some it would be singing.

Even our conversational speech has melody. Listen to Mexican speech for instance. There is a pattern of high middle low that repeats on every 3rd syllable. 123123123123 high middle low high middle low high middle low high middle low

And bear with me on this track. There is a reason I haven't posted it. I've come a long way in 11 years. I performed and produced everything. It won't be up long. Just long enough to continue this debate.

Well put Sentient.....

My personal problem with rap is that I can hear the rhymes coming before they are there. and although at one time what the rap community had to say was socially revelent , the message has been worn out and seems to be degrading into something totally commercial and depraved. Guns, bitches, money and drugs. That whole attitude.
I'm sure there is still some good rap out there it's just the majority of what I hear is just what I've stated. And personally I don't like the form well enough to search out the good stuff...

Nothing wrong with guns, bitches, money, or drugs ... if used responsibly.