General Music Chat

I'm tired, I'm waiting for dinner, been out since 7am,now 7pm. Thank God for short days.

I have to laugh because all I read here is that I am a JERK for NOT working a 40 hour a week job and NOT being satisfied with that. Our government will take care of all your needs.

My biggest need is to NEVER BE STOPPED from being successful at any goal I strive for. Never be told "you can't do that", " you raise your ugly head and they will kill you","you got no right". ETC ETC ETC.

You know, thinking back over my last 10 years , I've had people that needed help. I think Gwen and I have never turned our backs. I would say we have "lost more, than most people make in a year". Bull Dinky. These are the same people that are not getting the help from our government that say this is why we have to tax you so much.

That is why I laugh, let me help, but don't tell me I have to help.

So now it's not currency, but "false" currency. What exactly do you mean by currency - let's get this on the table because you've got a strange notion of it - it sounds to me like you're saying we just gotta get rid of that green stuff - but you can still trade cattle for golden watches, or mow your neighbor's lawn for a glass of moo for your kids at home. Help me here.

I’m not saying we just gotta get rid of that green stuff. But, that green stuff is the puppet string that pulls society. You can’t cut that string until society is ready to let go of it. It won’t be ready to let go of it until it matures and some conditions are met. That takes time. It doesn’t just happen overnight, “Abracadabra.”

Well, I think you're straying into semantics then, because currency is nothing more than a representative of work you've done - it just puts it into your wallet instead of on the end of a leash - I mean you can't exactly go down the market and buy a few sacks of flour while toting a few cows for trade - it's just easier to use currency, as history demonstrates - there has always been currency, for that reason.

What does that book say utopia ought to be, and again, does it present a map for nations to follow to get to that perfect society? If not, it's no different than what Star Trek presents - the end result without the means to get there - and many a nation has tried making their own road maps thru history - but they still use "false currency", or black markets (those inherently evil people

“those inherently evil people?”

The book doesn’t talk about “road maps to utopia” or some such nonsense. It pieces together an ethical framework of classic philosophers, using Star Trek for examples, that any individual could apply to themselves.

Well, thanks for the recommendation, but I think my point is made. We can all dream of how the world ought to be - but that thing called reality prevents it from happening without an iron fist to force people to act the way the utopian dream has envisioned. The planet has an immense population, everything from tribes in the boonies to downtown New York. Getting everyone to act in the interest of others requires a jump start of huge sacrifice, that people with families are not going to want to oblige, out of obligation to the best interest of the their families. Nations that have tried to force this kind of vision, end up having to force people to sacrifice themselves and their families for the sake of the vision, and you end up with a very unhappy people. Open up a few history books to see how this has always ended.

Thanks for the fun discussion.
Christian A.

Well, I think you're straying into semantics then, because currency is nothing more than a representative of work you've done - it just puts it into your wallet instead of on the end of a leash - I mean you can't exactly go down the market and buy a few sacks of flour while toting a few cows for trade - it's just easier to use currency, as history demonstrates - there has always been currency, for that reason.

“This is the way we do things because we’ve always done it” is not an answer. It’s a cop-out. An evasion. In primitive cultures what you say may have been true at one time. But, that was before centralized banking, before corporations, before usury. The game changed long ago. What we’re left with now is more akin to a Ponzi scheme, just to keep the system afloat. You could not survive if a representation of your labor was what you were actually paid. Modernity makes that extremely difficult if not impossible. And the convenience of currency comes at a price. Your freedom.

Well, thanks for the recommendation, but I think my point is made… Nations that have tried to force this kind of vision, end up having to force people to sacrifice themselves and their families for the sake of the vision, and you end up with a very unhappy people. Open up a few history books to see how this has always ended.

No culture in history EVER did away with money. They rearranged how it was distributed. The only point you made is that you do not listen nor want to.

We can all dream of how the world ought to be - but that thing called reality prevents it from happening without an iron fist to force people to act the way the utopian dream has envisioned.

Consensus is reality. Ask for nothing and you will get it. As for the iron fist, yeah, people tend to resist being TOLD what to do. As I said, conditions require to be changed. People have to WANT to change. Getting everyone to act in the interest of others isn’t even an issue. Self-interest will always be a primary motive for people. There isn’t really a huge sacrifice to be made. A slight change in behavior, with the aid of modern technology, gives you what you want freely. Not a bad bargain.
Actually, with the ever-persistent forces driving down costs (and wages) it may only be a matter of time before we’re all replaced by automation anyway. Without an income, people will end up demanding this.

Well, I think you're straying into semantics then, because currency is nothing more than a representative of work you've done - it just puts it into your wallet instead of on the end of a leash - I mean you can't exactly go down the market and buy a few sacks of flour while toting a few cows for trade - it's just easier to use currency, as history demonstrates - there has always been currency, for that reason.

“This is the way we do things because we’ve always done it” is not an answer. It’s a cop-out. An evasion. In primitive cultures what you say may have been true at one time. But, that was before centralized banking, before corporations, before usury. The game changed long ago. What we’re left with now is more akin to a Ponzi scheme, just to keep the system afloat. You could not survive if a representation of your labor was what you were actually paid. Modernity makes that extremely difficult if not impossible. And the convenience of currency comes at a price. Your freedom.

Well, show me a machine that can make something out of nothing. We still have currency because, well, what's changed technologically that we can get away from it? And what socially has changed in man that leads you to believe that even if we had machines that could materialize everything you need to survive, someone somewhere won't come up with a better machine and refuses to give it to you because he takes pride in knowing and having something better than you?

Dreaming up technology that creates everything you need out of nothing doesn't put food on the table. You need an action plan, and all the action plans to date, have necessitated some form of currency because it's impossibly impractical to divvy up your stock pile of corn, loaded on a 2 mule wagon, to visit 10 other people in your community to trade for water, bacon and whiskey.

Plus, to think that the "inconvenience" of a lack of currency isn't itself a price you'll pay, is just wishful thinking. It's noble, but not reality, and my money says it never will be a reality because the nature of man, and the fact that we live in a universe where some things are closer than others, and therefore have more intrinsic value to them because of their proximity, some form of currency will always be a notion whereby people trade for convenience sake, not just the items themselves.

regards,
Christian A.

Well, I think you're straying into semantics then, because currency is nothing more than a representative of work you've done - it just puts it into your wallet instead of on the end of a leash - I mean you can't exactly go down the market and buy a few sacks of flour while toting a few cows for trade - it's just easier to use currency, as history demonstrates - there has always been currency, for that reason.

“This is the way we do things because we’ve always done it” is not an answer. It’s a cop-out. An evasion. In primitive cultures what you say may have been true at one time. But, that was before centralized banking, before corporations, before usury. The game changed long ago. What we’re left with now is more akin to a Ponzi scheme, just to keep the system afloat. You could not survive if a representation of your labor was what you were actually paid. Modernity makes that extremely difficult if not impossible. And the convenience of currency comes at a price. Your freedom.

Well, show me a machine that can make something out of nothing. We still have currency because, well, what's changed technologically that we can get away from it? And what socially has changed in man that leads you to believe that even if we had machines that could materialize everything you need to survive, someone somewhere won't come up with a better machine and refuses to give it to you because he takes pride in knowing and having something better than you?

Dreaming up technology that creates everything you need out of nothing doesn't put food on the table. You need an action plan, and all the action plans to date, have necessitated some form of currency because it's impossibly impractical to divvy up your stock pile of corn, loaded on a 2 mule wagon, to visit 10 other people in your community to trade for water, bacon and whiskey.

Plus, to think that the "inconvenience" of a lack of currency isn't itself a price you'll pay, is just wishful thinking. It's noble, but not reality, and my money says it never will be a reality because the nature of man, and the fact that we live in a universe where some things are closer than others, and therefore have more intrinsic value to them because of their proximity, some form of currency will always be a notion whereby people trade for convenience sake, not just the items themselves.

regards,
Christian A.

No one is suggesting we go overthrow the federal reserve tomorrow. Jeezus. And, what’s with all the medieval references? What century are we in?
I saw some behavior study done a few years ago, trying to determine why computer programmers would give away open-source software and Amish people raise barns. They found a general income area where people are content and happy. More money didn’t make a difference. The work did. Hard manual labor usually demanded more, depending on what it was. But, the more people enjoy what they do the less the money matters.
I don’t know why this bothers you so much. If no one ever imagined something different, we’d still live in caves. There’s always some folks ahead of the curve and some behind it I guess. Unless you’ve got something new to add the conversation I’m probably done.
“Live long and prosper.”

Well, I think you're straying into semantics then, because currency is nothing more than a representative of work you've done - it just puts it into your wallet instead of on the end of a leash - I mean you can't exactly go down the market and buy a few sacks of flour while toting a few cows for trade - it's just easier to use currency, as history demonstrates - there has always been currency, for that reason.

“This is the way we do things because we’ve always done it” is not an answer. It’s a cop-out. An evasion. In primitive cultures what you say may have been true at one time. But, that was before centralized banking, before corporations, before usury. The game changed long ago. What we’re left with now is more akin to a Ponzi scheme, just to keep the system afloat. You could not survive if a representation of your labor was what you were actually paid. Modernity makes that extremely difficult if not impossible. And the convenience of currency comes at a price. Your freedom.

Well, show me a machine that can make something out of nothing. We still have currency because, well, what's changed technologically that we can get away from it? And what socially has changed in man that leads you to believe that even if we had machines that could materialize everything you need to survive, someone somewhere won't come up with a better machine and refuses to give it to you because he takes pride in knowing and having something better than you?

Dreaming up technology that creates everything you need out of nothing doesn't put food on the table. You need an action plan, and all the action plans to date, have necessitated some form of currency because it's impossibly impractical to divvy up your stock pile of corn, loaded on a 2 mule wagon, to visit 10 other people in your community to trade for water, bacon and whiskey.

Plus, to think that the "inconvenience" of a lack of currency isn't itself a price you'll pay, is just wishful thinking. It's noble, but not reality, and my money says it never will be a reality because the nature of man, and the fact that we live in a universe where some things are closer than others, and therefore have more intrinsic value to them because of their proximity, some form of currency will always be a notion whereby people trade for convenience sake, not just the items themselves.

regards,
Christian A.

No one is suggesting we go overthrow the federal reserve tomorrow. Jeezus. And, what’s with all the medieval references? What century are we in?
I saw some behavior study done a few years ago, trying to determine why computer programmers would give away open-source software and Amish people raise barns. They found a general income area where people are content and happy. More money didn’t make a difference. The work did. Hard manual labor usually demanded more, depending on what it was. But, the more people enjoy what they do the less the money matters.
I don’t know why this bothers you so much. If no one ever imagined something different, we’d still live in caves. There’s always some folks ahead of the curve and some behind it I guess. Unless you’ve got something new to add the conversation I’m probably done.
“Live long and prosper.”

You lose Mikey.
Ad Hominem FTW!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LPjzfGChGlE&feature=recentlik

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LPjzfGChGlE&feature=recentlik

Kinda depressing. Were you trying to say something?