General Music Chat

"There is evil in the world. There are extremists who want us dead."

Absolutely. Currently occupying 1600 Pennsylvania Ave. Illegally. Never elected, this neo-Fascist Neo-con job has brought a once-great nation to its knees economically and morally.

There is a great threat to all of us from radical fundamentalist extremists who believe that Allah is coming on a golden chariot to elevate the "true believers" and destroy the "infidels". They are true fanatics, violent lunatics, no question. We need to remain vigilant and crush their attacks on the Constitution and our entire American way of life. The founding fathers anticipated just such a development. That's why they gave us the greatest weapon to insure our Freedoms ever devised.

Impeachment.

"Excerpt: Recognizing the threat Iraq’s non-compliance with Council resolutions and proliferation of weapons of mass destruction and long-range missiles poses to international peace and security,"

Uh, dude, reality check here. Saddam had no WMDs. Inspectors were on the ground, doing their job effectively, allowed everywhere reporting that very fact when Bush launched his insane war for oil. The UN had to pull the inspectors only because Bush's Haliburton private army was invading a sovereign nation posing zero threat to the US, something that Bush swore he would never do in his campaign.

The "brave men" etc in Iraq are now by majority a private army of mercenaries working for corporations like Blackwater. They owe their allegiance to Blackwater's bottom line, not the US Constitution. They are bound by NO LAWS, including murder. They frequently take joyrides slaughtering Iraqi civilians for fun. Brave? You bet.

Why dont you just go away Dude! I bet you support Gay Marriage also. We see your true colors, Instead of red, white & blue. Its red, white & Pink. Have a good life 'My Dear'.

wegman, I don't wanna get in the way of the well informed tongue lashing I suspect irminsul is about to deliver to you... but I will say:


I don't believe the world is a peacefull place and I'm not crying "give peace a chance..." ,
I think your point is completely disheveled by the fact that korea(among others) is a much bigger threat than saddam ever was.

Keep in mind:1 THERE WERE NO WEAPONS OF MASS DESTRUCTION.
PERIOD.
2 SADDAM DID NOT PUNCH US IN THE FACE OVER AND OVER. PERIOD.

(forgive me, I'm not sure how many times it will take before ppul quit shamelessly using this excuse, so I figure I'll throw it out there agian)

"One other thing. IF the full might of the United States Army was ever unleashed no holds barred, no political BS there would be nothing left standing. There would be so many dead, so much destruction in Iraq it would be beyond comprehension"
yes and then we would be so proud to be americans.
you sound like john wayne. you are a prime example of american "might makes right" mentality that has found us so many eastern enemies.
You sound exactly like a crazy muslim extremist: "if the full wrath of alah were unleashed... we will not die, we will wage gihad on america and alah will rise up and destroy her because he is all powerfull." I'm trying hard to respect your earnest opinion, but think b4 you speak.

I'm all ready and willing to be convinced that I have somehow missed something and someone will point out the smoking gun to me... but your anthology is so far from any sort of coherent logic that I am stunned that you actually think it makes some sort of sense, and I say that with all due respect, and no sarcasm.

"Now when you finally fight back, your the bad guy. " - sounds as if you missed that whole desert storm thing alltogether. When we FINALLY fight back???????????????????????

If you have a point about the need to wage the war in the middleeast that is respectable... try to adhere to some sort of factually based skeleton of information.

... and vandb and bob... quit trying to make us all feel guilty that we're not talking about music here... there is nothing wrong with this healthy discussion... if you get offended by anothers dissagreement then you have lost the battle. I respect you both... but I hate it when ppul say "now lets get back to music" - right after they have made THEIR point. Play fair boys.

Yeah, last time I checked, this was a political thread. And we're musicians who believe in living free and speaking free. Kinda goes hand in hand.

Now if this was 18 mos. it'd be more worth it to argue Iraq and torture and illegal spying on Americans and a justice system used to rig elections (that is precisely what the replacement of the Fed Prosecutors is all about).

But look around. Americans have turned against Cheney, Bush and their fascist corporate incompetent illegal coup. It's all over but the shouting. Hardcore wingnut Republicans are deserting the sinking ship of state daily. An equal number of Dems and Repubs are outraged over Bush's illegal alien amnesty giveaway for corporate gouging. Now at the state level The People have spoken and forced their local pols to pass sweeping new immigration control laws.

The People are finally starting to be heard. And they want out of Iraq, they want secure borders, they want healthcare, and they want jobs. Bush & Cheney aren't just lame ducks, they are dead ducks. Finished. Stick a fork in em. Even Luger and Warner have jumped ship!

And anybody who stands in our way is gonna get trampled. Helloooo John McCain...bye bye.

And you are in left field without a glove. You contradict yourself. Not the sharpest knife in the kitchen. And instead of red, white & Pink, I would guess 'DRUGS'. [Hawk] Like I suggested, 'Just go Away'. Call me John Wayne, etc. Ive been called worse. And I dont think before I speak, I say what I believe & know, Like it or not. I talk the talk & I walk the walk. Just wish I could debate this face to face, Not over the web. You dont know me, & dont underestimate anyone. Because like you inquired, I am a Barbaric American. Can be the nicest person you could meet. And I can be your worst nightmare. As I said, [I walk the walk].......Peace - War.

Yeah, well, you actually make the most articulate argument against yourself just from your post. There's really nothing much I can add to that, it kind of speaks for itself. Self-satire. Nothing else is required. I rest my case.

wegman, I don't wanna get in the way of the well informed tongue lashing I suspect irminsul is about to deliver to you... but I will say:


I don't believe the world is a peacefull place and I'm not crying "give peace a chance..." ,
I think your point is completely disheveled by the fact that korea(among others) is a much bigger threat than saddam ever was.

Keep in mind:1 THERE WERE NO WEAPONS OF MASS DESTRUCTION.
PERIOD.
2 SADDAM DID NOT PUNCH US IN THE FACE OVER AND OVER. PERIOD.

(forgive me, I'm not sure how many times it will take before ppul quit shamelessly using this excuse, so I figure I'll throw it out there agian)

"One other thing. IF the full might of the United States Army was ever unleashed no holds barred, no political BS there would be nothing left standing. There would be so many dead, so much destruction in Iraq it would be beyond comprehension"
yes and then we would be so proud to be americans.
you sound like john wayne. you are a prime example of american "might makes right" mentality that has found us so many eastern enemies.
You sound exactly like a crazy muslim extremist: "if the full wrath of alah were unleashed... we will not die, we will wage gihad on america and alah will rise up and destroy her because he is all powerfull." I'm trying hard to respect your earnest opinion, but think b4 you speak.

I'm all ready and willing to be convinced that I have somehow missed something and someone will point out the smoking gun to me... but your anthology is so far from any sort of coherent logic that I am stunned that you actually think it makes some sort of sense, and I say that with all due respect, and no sarcasm.

"Now when you finally fight back, your the bad guy. " - sounds as if you missed that whole desert storm thing alltogether. When we FINALLY fight back???????????????????????

If you have a point about the need to wage the war in the middleeast that is respectable... try to adhere to some sort of factually based skeleton of information.

... and vandb and bob... quit trying to make us all feel guilty that we're not talking about music here... there is nothing wrong with this healthy discussion... if you get offended by anothers dissagreement then you have lost the battle. I respect you both... but I hate it when ppul say "now lets get back to music" - right after they have made THEIR point. Play fair boys.

Mr Mike not even close to what I was getting at and this why I usually stay out of these conversations. You totally twisted my response to support your MO. Thank you for comparing me to muslim extremist by the way, that's a very nice touch.

So let's simplify. The war in Iraq? It is ugly, disgusting, unpopular, and totally necessary and I support it 100% as I do Afghanistan and anywhere extremists try to take refuge. WMD no WMD in Iraq, couldn't care less and I do not hold Bush accountable nor guilty.

I grew up on the south side of Chicago, heard of Cicero? I know what it's like to have to fight for no reason. I don't think you and Iminisul do You believe there is peaceful solution out of fight. Sorry guys, dead wrong and that is how I see this war. An inevitable fight against extremism and that was the MO all along.

A few things for you Wegman -

* Resolution 1441 is one of the most intentionally misused and misunderstood resolutions in UN history because it is purposefully spun into some weird directions for the PNAC idiots in the Bush White House to justify this unjustifiable invasion and occupation. 1441 speaks to the terms of a ceasefire in Iraq after Goof War I, and the establishment of a No Fly Zone.

There never should have BEEN a No Fly Zone. It is an illegal and illegitimate sidebar from an illegal and illegitimate war. Would you tolerate foreign fighters running bombing missions over YOUR airspace, YOUR homes? I sure as hell wouldnt and would take great pleasure in blowing them out of the sky.

* Before you say we have no inalienable rights, perhaps you should try reading the Declaration of Independence some time. In it you will find that we in fact do have certain inalienable (unalterable, undeletable) rights -among them are life,liberty and the pursuit of happiness. Notice Jefferson said "AMONG them" meaning there are others....and if you want examples of those, go read another document you clearly have never read - The United States Constitution, inparticular the first ten amendments, commonly known as the Bill of Rights. In the Bill of Rights, amendment one to be exact, it talks about our right to free speech. Nowhere in there does it say that right is dependent upon the whim of the military or their executive branch directors. It is a RIGHT. Endowed us by our CREATOR. Not by the armed forces.

Additionally, not a single soldier today fights for my right to speak my mind or for any other of my basic and fundamental rights as an American. No,instead they fight on the command of a lying, thuggish White House regime who cares more about profits for big oil and companies like Halliburton than for the true welfare of the country. Don't drink the Koolaid!

* You mentioned in another thread that you are a "proud Christian". Well, Who Would Jesus Bomb? Do you actually believe that He whispered into the ear of George Bush to create a tissue of lies and cooked intel based on WMD in Iraq that WASNT THERE, in order to kill 600,000 innocent Iraqis and now going on 4,000 American soldiers?

If so, I tell ya....thats a great reason never to be a Christian!

Why dont you just go away Dude! I bet you support Gay Marriage also. We see your true colors, Instead of red, white & blue. Its red, white & Pink. Have a good life 'My Dear'.

Vocals&Bass I never knew you were a homophobe until now. Hmmm.

Irminsul,

First of all let me commend you on your response. Not personally attacking, factual. Your a gentleman and I respect that. I believe you and I can have a polite discussion.


As far as resolution 1441, it is a UN document. YOu can say there is spin on it and that may be true, but it is still an official UN document.

The no fly zone was setup for the protection of the Kurds in the north. It was not illegal, it was necessary and I posted the link to the information. As far as your statment on a no fly zone imposed on our country, I agree with you 100% however, my/our country did not lose a war and thus was not subject to certain mandates by the UN. So the no fly zone is completely legitimate and necessary. Now after losing a war, and being subjected to UN mandates do you not, even somewhat believe the firing on our aircraft to be an act of engagment/war? What do you think would have happend if the Nazis or Japanese were still firing on us after they surrendered in WWII?

If you disagree with the UN resolution so be it but now you are stating conjecture, not fact. The facts are in the document no matter how subject to interpretation.

As far as the Christian perspective the Lord said "There will be wars, and rumors of wars but see to it you are not alarmed. Such things must happen, but the end is still to come." Matthew 24:6

Nothing further I need say there.

Irminsul, the Declaration of Independance and the Constitution are pieces of paper. They provide the rights contained within because our fore fathers were willing TO FIGHT for them. The war of independance gave you that right, not the piece of paper and this the heart of my arguement. World War II did as well. Go take the declaration of independance to an extremist and tell him something bad about Allah and then tell him he doesn't have the right to kill you because the document says you have the right to free speach. Guess what my friend? Your dead, period end of story. (Salomon Rushdie ring a bell?) And if he wants you bad enough, he will take everyone in your office, town, train etc. That is what we are fighting in Iraq right now and yes the Iraqis are caught in the middle. But, it is there country and if they support or aid Al Queda our enemy then they are the enemy to. It' just that simple. It's a horrible deal but I would fight and die for my family. That is where the line is. That is my stand on the issue.

The first Bush admin showed unbelievable control by not completly desimating the republican guard and why was that? Because he was worried about the out cry from the world at large. So once again as General Patton stated "Our elected officials always stop short leaving us another war to fight".

YOu ever read Patton "War As I Knew IT"? A great read.



Lastly, your music kicks booty! I like it alot.

Wegman, don't think because you came up in a bad part of chicago you are somehow more in touch with what it's like to struggle. That is silly. I came up on the streets of depere wi. It doesn't get much tougher than that. (see how stupid I sound?)

"Thank you for comparing me to muslim extremist by the way, that's a very nice touch. " - u r welcome. I was only trying to make you think... you obviously needed a push.

"I grew up on the south side of Chicago, heard of Cicero?" - and u r clearly a "rags to riches" story of how one can come up amidst such terror and yet evolve into a wise and understanding individual.

"You believe there is peaceful solution out of fight" - I'm gonna go over this slowly so your inner city shortcomings won't hold you back...
I think we SHOULD have gone to war... with korea... again.

YOU made the analogy that we have been punched...
Slower? ok, this just in... saddam did not bomb(punch) the trade tower...
no weapons of mass destruction means little threat from that country.

while I do agree we have done some good by removing one of the millions of horrible dictators on earth... I think we could have been much more efficient in our "war on terror" if we actually went after a terrorist or two, perhaps one that bombed the us.

vandb - I honestly can't tell if some of your comments are directed at me or if it is just a coincidence that I mentioned johnwayne... but I have known you to be a reasonable individual so I suspect not. I will say that I see no problem with gay marriage. Color me red white and pink first. What is good for the goose is good for the gandor. TOLERANCE. There should be no gov institution of marriage. It is a religious concept and we decided long ago that there should be seperation of church and state. So either no "marriage" in the eyes of the govt or everyone should be allowed to be part of a "union" between two people. No one is asking the church to accept gay marriages... only the govt.

KTHawk... don't "cosign" for me... I don't wish to draw lines and divide the group based on my opinion... I only wan't to influence as best I can. NO OFFENCE.

Why dont you just go away Dude! I bet you support Gay Marriage also. We see your true colors, Instead of red, white & blue. Its red, white & Pink. Have a good life 'My Dear'.

Vocals&Bass I never knew you were a homophobe until now. Hmmm.

Dang lady! I thought you were intelligent enough to recgonize that Im 'Bipolar' also. You disappoint me girl !!! {No Mike, I wasnt referring to you Bro. By the way, I lived in Cicero when I was 8 to 14yrs of age. Did you go to Burnam school? Dont know if the spelling of the school is correct or not?

[quote="MrMikeV"]Wegman, don't think because you came up in a bad part of chicago you are somehow more in touch with what it's like to struggle. That is silly. I came up on the streets of depere wi. It doesn't get much tougher than that. (see how stupid I sound?)

<<<<Yea you do and I will tell you why. I live about 50 miles from you and are very familiar with the whole area. Depere is about as scary and tough as Disney land during the tourist season so I would expect you not to relate my mean streets of Chicago reference. Hey how bout that brutal section of Green Bay say around Day, Cherry street etc. Oooooo scary. I remember everyone telling me to stay out of there. What a joke.

Where I am from people will kill you for your basketball shoes or Bulls jersey. I am not lying. Mike, you ever walk the streets of your town now and feel that if you don't have a gun on you you may not come home that night? Mike you ever been shot at? If not, then you can't possibly relate to the point I was making which is exaclty why I said it and what I expected your reaction to be, and insulting me on top of it is way out line. YOu have never had to fight for anything have you? I don't mean a job, or first seat in band. I mean for your bike, a friend who just got jumped, or some guys who just want to kick your ass because they are bored.

And this is where these conversations usually end up. Way off topic because some one has to be insulting. Mike I never once insulted you or you intelligence with a pithy comment. I wish I could say the same for you.

So let's try this one more time. Here is what I said.

"Mr Mike not even close to what I was getting at and this why I usually stay out of these conversations. You totally twisted my response to support your MO. Thank you for comparing me to muslim extremist by the way, that's a very nice touch.

So let's simplify. The war in Iraq? It is ugly, disgusting, unpopular, and totally necessary and I support it 100% as I do Afghanistan and anywhere extremists try to take refuge. WMD no WMD in Iraq, couldn't care less and I do not hold Bush accountable nor guilty.

I grew up on the south side of Chicago, heard of Cicero? I know what it's like to have to fight for no reason. I don't think you and Iminisul do You believe there is peaceful solution out of fight. Sorry guys, dead wrong and that is how I see this war. An inevitable fight against extremism and that was the MO all along."


Insult me all you want from here on out. I am done talking to you.

I'm guessing the irony of that statement was lost on you... I've been homeless in LA sweetheart, I've been to compton, hawthorne, little jamaica, little tokyo, chinatown, etc. and lemme tell you caprini green ain't shyt in comparrison... so please spare me the tuff talk (no I'm not kidding at all).

"I live about 50 miles from you and are very familiar with the whole area" again, where you thinking I was serious? I'm still not sure how being from a bad part of chicago bolsters your argument... it really comes off crass. Are you trying to point out how "Untuff" miwaukee is? That is one point you WILL win... but I'm not going to go walk around 30th and national at 2am with $20 bills hanging out my pockets any more than I would try it in the green. Lets face it... your or my pekid white ass would be shot up in a matter of minutes in either place... so lets not go there(literally).

Sorry for the rips on your intelect(sincerely). Sometimes my witt is more than I can controll, and I formally apologize. But don't ever expect me to pull punches... many here know I won't -and I will do it again.


Fully aware that I may be accused of being compliant with your desire to remain civil, I will say that sometimes, you have to come at someone strong to impress upon them the depth of their own "ignorance"... and that is my single intention.
ps your oooo scary comment is almost more than I can take... LOL. You do demonstrate a good sense of humor allbeit ill-directed. Still the irony of it all is you go into a little town like that and act a fool cause you think it's 'no big thing' and it's probably where you end up actually getting shot... whereas the BIG city envokes a certain amount of respect that will keep you isolated from that kind of liklihood. I speak from experience haveing built up my guard in LA and comeing back to milwaukee(thinking it ain't so ruff) and going to popeyes on 3rd and MrtinLuthKngJr at ten o clock and having some dude stick a gun in my face at a drive thru. So try and keep that in mind... don't be such a tuff guy... and peace be with you whereever you go.

Mr Mike I was not going to respond under any circumstance but this one. Thank you for the explanation.