Hi everyone.
Long time amateur musician here, never much involved with gigs but have my hand in later in life now that other things have slowed down. So I am trying to learn how to do this properly with modern equipment now that I have access to it.
The band that has informally asked me to mix sound for them on an as-available basis has an inexpertly configured Master Fader preset where bass and kick are routed to both subwoofer and full range mains (without linking them through the l/r fader, so their levels through subs or mains are independently controlled by separate input channel faders).
The subs are also driven from a separate aux and the output level of the subs is not linked to the l/r mains via a VCA.
To make things even more confusing, the full range mains are operating in full range mode and carry the rest of the mix exclusively, without using the subwoofers at all for the rest of the instruments or vocals. Only the kick and bass go to the subs.
This results in several difficulties, primarily being that it is impossible to control the l/r mains sound from a single fader, and adjusting either the full range or sub channels results in frequency response shift, as does adjusting the bass and kick, unless I read the dB and set it manually via keypad entry with some math to ensure I keep the balances that are in the unlinked faders of the preset.
I tried backing down the mix at the end of the night as everyone left and the band started playing louder, but at one point I forgot the number I was supposed to enter for subs attenuation. I tried to cancel the operation but when I touched outside the keypad it took the solitary minus sign as 0dB and blasted us all with 15dB extra subwoofer for the overly climactic final measure of the song.
There was a pro engineer hired by the bar for this gig who tried his best to help us get the mixer set up properly and monitored what I did, but there just was not enough time to do set up properly starting from what amounts to a noob preset with multiple errors changed on-the-fly by another somewhat-noob with some expert help.
The pro told me I could blame Mackie for my momentary bass blast (it was startlingly loud but fortunately the pro who came for setup and stayed to monitor my work had already configured some compression so it was not damaging to the speakers).
At this time I am just ignoring the finer points of mixing and trying to get the basic structure of the patch done right. I am not sure what to do though. Should the full range be operated in bass-limited mode with a true crossover, or should I try to cut the bass by 6dB and let the subs fill in the bottom some?
I think I can figure out how to patch the mixer such that all sources are sent to both sub and full range, and such that both sub and full range are controlled off a single VCA. I got about 1/3 of the way through the Master Fader manual and I think I have it figured out with some reading ahead here and there.
Problem is, I have no clue where I should cross the subs, or if I should just operate them low pass in parallel with the mains running full range. It is unlikely that the drummer who owns the PA is going to consent to me setting up a calibration microphone and Room EQ Wizard to measure the performance and set it objectively. It would be far easier for me to just cross the subs and match the levels at crossover than to try and blend the two systems together by ear.
It seems the subs are limited to 120Hz on the top end and that is where I set the crossover for the last gig. Seemed to work OK but I am concerned what may happen if I put the rest of the mix through them too. They only have slightly more than half the power amp of the full range speakers.
Since I did not manage to link all input channels to both the full-range l/r and the subs with a single fader, and the mains were running crossed at 120Hz, all the rest of the mix lost its bottom for that gig. It was noticeable but not horrible and no one but me seemed to know or care. Then again, it was so deafeningly loud that no one could have objectively evaluated the mix without in-ear attenuation anyway (the pro had his monitors in without wiring them and he said the mix sounded nice, but primarily because he re-did all the EQ IMO, something I am not conversant with for live sound is tailoring the EQ of instruments).
The speakers have way more output than we need for the venues being played (small/medium size bars) and this band likes to pound out the dBs to absolutely deafening tactile levels on the dance floor in front of the stage, but even my initial attempt to cross the subs and mains demonstrated that both have more than enough power for even the largest venue I have seen them perform at. I had the cross set at 120Hz for that last gig.
So, anyone got a recommendation for crossover frequency? Or should I just fake it by ear? Should I double up the subs over the lower end of the mains, or keep them isolated by frequency band?
all mackie
DL1608 mixer running Master Fader on the iPad (no idea which OS or Master Fader version)
sa1530z full range:
https://supportloudtech.netx.net/loud-public/#/asset/10579
Acoustic Performance
Frequency Range (–10 dB) 38 Hz–20 kHz
Frequency Response (–3 dB) 50 Hz–18 kHz
Horizonal Coverage Angle (–6 dB) 90º averaged 2 kHz to 10 kHz
Vertical Coverage Angle (–6 dB) 40º averaged 2 kHz to 10 kHz
Directivity Factor; DI (Q) 11.3 (13.5) averaged 2k Hz to 10 kHz
Max SPL long-term 132 dB @ 1m
Max SPL peak 135 dB @ 1m
Crossover Points 700 Hz, 3000 Hz
swa1801z subwoofer:
https://supportloudtech.netx.net/loud-public/#/asset/10600
Frequency Range (–10 dB) 35 Hz–120 Hz
Frequency Response (–3 dB) 45 Hz–120 Hz
Max SPL long-term 129 dB @ 1m
Max SPL peak 135 dB @ 1m
Crossover Frequency: 120 Hz (12 dB/octave)
I also posted an inquiry about ear plugs just a little while ago. If anyone has information to share, that is if anything a more important issue since my hearing is already kaput and these levels not only distort my hearing they are also painful to me.
I don't see the point in deafening oneself or the audience but it seems to be all the rage with all these cheap watts in small boxes. I am trying to opt out of any more deafness and do the mix right so it sounds good without being deafening.
thx for all your help.
Cheryl
Long time amateur musician here, never much involved with gigs but have my hand in later in life now that other things have slowed down. So I am trying to learn how to do this properly with modern equipment now that I have access to it.
The band that has informally asked me to mix sound for them on an as-available basis has an inexpertly configured Master Fader preset where bass and kick are routed to both subwoofer and full range mains (without linking them through the l/r fader, so their levels through subs or mains are independently controlled by separate input channel faders).
The subs are also driven from a separate aux and the output level of the subs is not linked to the l/r mains via a VCA.
To make things even more confusing, the full range mains are operating in full range mode and carry the rest of the mix exclusively, without using the subwoofers at all for the rest of the instruments or vocals. Only the kick and bass go to the subs.
This results in several difficulties, primarily being that it is impossible to control the l/r mains sound from a single fader, and adjusting either the full range or sub channels results in frequency response shift, as does adjusting the bass and kick, unless I read the dB and set it manually via keypad entry with some math to ensure I keep the balances that are in the unlinked faders of the preset.
I tried backing down the mix at the end of the night as everyone left and the band started playing louder, but at one point I forgot the number I was supposed to enter for subs attenuation. I tried to cancel the operation but when I touched outside the keypad it took the solitary minus sign as 0dB and blasted us all with 15dB extra subwoofer for the overly climactic final measure of the song.
There was a pro engineer hired by the bar for this gig who tried his best to help us get the mixer set up properly and monitored what I did, but there just was not enough time to do set up properly starting from what amounts to a noob preset with multiple errors changed on-the-fly by another somewhat-noob with some expert help.
The pro told me I could blame Mackie for my momentary bass blast (it was startlingly loud but fortunately the pro who came for setup and stayed to monitor my work had already configured some compression so it was not damaging to the speakers).
At this time I am just ignoring the finer points of mixing and trying to get the basic structure of the patch done right. I am not sure what to do though. Should the full range be operated in bass-limited mode with a true crossover, or should I try to cut the bass by 6dB and let the subs fill in the bottom some?
I think I can figure out how to patch the mixer such that all sources are sent to both sub and full range, and such that both sub and full range are controlled off a single VCA. I got about 1/3 of the way through the Master Fader manual and I think I have it figured out with some reading ahead here and there.
Problem is, I have no clue where I should cross the subs, or if I should just operate them low pass in parallel with the mains running full range. It is unlikely that the drummer who owns the PA is going to consent to me setting up a calibration microphone and Room EQ Wizard to measure the performance and set it objectively. It would be far easier for me to just cross the subs and match the levels at crossover than to try and blend the two systems together by ear.
It seems the subs are limited to 120Hz on the top end and that is where I set the crossover for the last gig. Seemed to work OK but I am concerned what may happen if I put the rest of the mix through them too. They only have slightly more than half the power amp of the full range speakers.
Since I did not manage to link all input channels to both the full-range l/r and the subs with a single fader, and the mains were running crossed at 120Hz, all the rest of the mix lost its bottom for that gig. It was noticeable but not horrible and no one but me seemed to know or care. Then again, it was so deafeningly loud that no one could have objectively evaluated the mix without in-ear attenuation anyway (the pro had his monitors in without wiring them and he said the mix sounded nice, but primarily because he re-did all the EQ IMO, something I am not conversant with for live sound is tailoring the EQ of instruments).
The speakers have way more output than we need for the venues being played (small/medium size bars) and this band likes to pound out the dBs to absolutely deafening tactile levels on the dance floor in front of the stage, but even my initial attempt to cross the subs and mains demonstrated that both have more than enough power for even the largest venue I have seen them perform at. I had the cross set at 120Hz for that last gig.
So, anyone got a recommendation for crossover frequency? Or should I just fake it by ear? Should I double up the subs over the lower end of the mains, or keep them isolated by frequency band?
all mackie
DL1608 mixer running Master Fader on the iPad (no idea which OS or Master Fader version)
sa1530z full range:
https://supportloudtech.netx.net/loud-public/#/asset/10579
Acoustic Performance
Frequency Range (–10 dB) 38 Hz–20 kHz
Frequency Response (–3 dB) 50 Hz–18 kHz
Horizonal Coverage Angle (–6 dB) 90º averaged 2 kHz to 10 kHz
Vertical Coverage Angle (–6 dB) 40º averaged 2 kHz to 10 kHz
Directivity Factor; DI (Q) 11.3 (13.5) averaged 2k Hz to 10 kHz
Max SPL long-term 132 dB @ 1m
Max SPL peak 135 dB @ 1m
Crossover Points 700 Hz, 3000 Hz
swa1801z subwoofer:
https://supportloudtech.netx.net/loud-public/#/asset/10600
Frequency Range (–10 dB) 35 Hz–120 Hz
Frequency Response (–3 dB) 45 Hz–120 Hz
Max SPL long-term 129 dB @ 1m
Max SPL peak 135 dB @ 1m
Crossover Frequency: 120 Hz (12 dB/octave)
I also posted an inquiry about ear plugs just a little while ago. If anyone has information to share, that is if anything a more important issue since my hearing is already kaput and these levels not only distort my hearing they are also painful to me.
I don't see the point in deafening oneself or the audience but it seems to be all the rage with all these cheap watts in small boxes. I am trying to opt out of any more deafness and do the mix right so it sounds good without being deafening.
thx for all your help.
Cheryl
