Musician Gear & Tech Discussion

Our band has full PA (x2 - small and big), but I've been keeping my eyes out for PA equipment for the acoustic duo act that I keep searching for a partner to do.
I've got a decent Mackie mixer (unpowered), so my thoughts have been to find some modest powered PA speakers, and I'm good to go. I know for full bands or bands doing a lot of gigging, it's always preferred to use unpowered speakers (lighter, only 1 cable needed) and power amps (keep a spare handy), but this is a different situation.

I'm not a real Behringer fan (I do have a 2x12" amp I use for practice), but the B210D speakers are on sale evrywhere right now for $159 each: http://www.music123.com/pro-audio/behri ... ker-system - normally they go for $199, so that's an $80 savings on 2 - enough for some good speaker stands and couple of cables to hook them up.
I know they won't be real loud, but they are likely to be more-than-enough for any duo gigs.

I'm rather a reactive individual.
By default of some little experience with plastic enclosure speakers.
I just have to say "no thanks".

Perhaps it's just a mail order mentality I've developed over the last couple of years playing gear head for our band but when I pull up speakers on a sales site and see a plastic enclosure, I cannot click off fast enough.

Truth is my only experience with a Behringer product was positive.
But we outgrew that little mixer very quickly. To the best of my knowledge my friend still has it in use in his home studio.

Count me as a big fan of powered speakers. Internal biamplification is the way to go IMO. Small, light weight, sound as good as anything I have used in many years of gigging with a few rare exceptions. My bi-amped Altec A7 cabs sounded better but they also weighed 280 lbs each! Of the top gigging bands in and around LA who work a lot and play street fairs, block parties, bars, backyard parties, acoustic gigs, 8 out of 10 use powered JBL, Mackie or EV speakers. They always sound great.

I have used the Mackie and JBL extensively but not the Behringer. I heard them briefly in music stores but never ran an A-B test to compare. This is what I suggest before you buy any speaker. Get in a room and compare them side by side with a music track you know well. Ignore the "super sale screaming deal" and just trust your ears.

Edit:
Looking at the spec sheet one thing stands out "Max SPL 113db" That is not very loud. Not loud at all. 113db is car stereo loud. High end bi-amped speakers generally have a max SPL around 127db which is a huge difference. Unless you only want to play in coffee houses or Barns and Noble bookstores I suggest you buy more speaker. 113db max SPL will simply disappear outdoors. I would not consider a sound reinforcement speaker that was below 120db max SPL.

These offer a lot more bang for the buck:
http://boston.craigslist.org/gbs/msg/3514115411.html

Nice pick up there Thejohnny7band and good info.

Here is my issue with powered speakers.
Color me silly if I'm off base here.

sh*t happens, right ?
I always have an extra amp in my rack . . . lot easier than carting around a 280 lb speaker.
And yes sh*t happens to passive speakers also. And yes I carry extra usually set up for the visual effect.
Not as large as my main towers but could be utilized in a pinch.
Also . . . in a lot of the "venues" I end up in the power supply is iffy.
I'm lucky if anyone involved can show me where the breakers are.
Long runs of power cord eat amps ( I forget the math ) and brown outs or blown breakers are a real show stopper.

Probably irrelevant in the application GuitarMikeB is alluding to.
Just food for thought / debate.

Application - exactly. Would never be playing big places with this system. Outdoors? Maybe a farmers market-type thing, but never a "big gig" - if I was playing a place like that I would expect the PA to be provided.

SPL numbers don't mean much to me, so I started looking at the specs on other powered speakers. Other 'low end' - Harbinger 12", Kustom 12" around 96dB. Mackie Thumps - 12" 112dB, 15" 113dB. High end speakers - 2X to 4X the money are in the 121dB and up range (JBL, EV, KSC).
The alternative to separate speakers/amp/mixer systems for the small act are 'all inclusive' systems, like the Fender Passport 300, the Fishman or Line 6 line array systems. The Passport uses 8" woofers, the others a bunch of 4" speakers - the SPL cannot be much from these, yet is more than adequate for the venues I'm talkking about.

As far as plastic cabs, all the mid-range stuff is in plastic these days - even JBLs, KSCs and EVs. Backup in case 'sh*t happens' - that's why you've got 2 powered speakers, one goes out, ouch, but not the end of the world. An acoustic duo can't afford to haul around a second backup system.


It's probably all moot at this point - no duo partner, my wife is now 4-1/2 months unemployed, state unemployment runs out for her in 6 weeks. Probably best not to buy anything at this time (but I still have $250+ of 'mad money' in my Paypal account from selling old crap off on ebay!)

Nice pick up there Thejohnny7band and good info.

Here is my issue with powered speakers.
Color me silly if I'm off base here.

sh*t happens, right ?
I always have an extra amp in my rack . . . lot easier than carting around a 280 lb speaker.
And yes sh*t happens to passive speakers also. And yes I carry extra usually set up for the visual effect.
Not as large as my main towers but could be utilized in a pinch.
Also . . . in a lot of the "venues" I end up in the power supply is iffy.
I'm lucky if anyone involved can show me where the breakers are.
Long runs of power cord eat amps ( I forget the math ) and brown outs or blown breakers are a real show stopper.

Probably irrelevant in the application GuitarMikeB is alluding to.
Just food for thought / debate.

All valid questions George.

One of the benefits of using internally bi-amped speakers is that the amps are designed exactly around the needs of the speakers so they are not only much lighter, but much more efficient at using power as well. Our old system with EV speakers and Crown amps drew 12A@115VAC. The JBL EONs draw 2.5A@115VAC for the same 127db max SPL. This solved 90% of the brown out problems we have all experienced.

The issue of reliability is also addressed with high-end powered speakers. Because the amps and speakers are carefully matched and a thermal overload breaker is built in, the breaker will trip before a speaker blows. Very high reliability is designed in.
127db is also far above our needs for most gigs so my JBLs are not working very hard. In 6 years of gigs I have never seen an EON flinch. If one ever did fail, we could still cover the room with just one remaining JBL. These guys did their homework.

Because I am an old school sound geek I pay a lot of attention to FOH sound. I never let a system clip for very long, I just turn it down some. Speakers in my band live a very long time. I have blown Jensen, Carvin, Eminence speakers over the years but never a JBL, EV or Altec. Blown speakers are nearly always operator error ( clipping or feedback) but high-end components have designed-in survivability which is why you find them in Madison Square Garden, The Houston Astrodome, and Hollywood Bowl.

Application - exactly. Would never be playing big places with this system. Outdoors? Maybe a farmers market-type thing, but never a "big gig" - if I was playing a place like that I would expect the PA to be provided.

SPL numbers don't mean much to me, so I started looking at the specs on other powered speakers. Other 'low end' - Harbinger 12", Kustom 12" around 96dB. Mackie Thumps - 12" 112dB, 15" 113dB. High end speakers - 2X to 4X the money are in the 121dB and up range (JBL, EV, KSC).
The alternative to separate speakers/amp/mixer systems for the small act are 'all inclusive' systems, like the Fender Passport 300, the Kingman or Line 6 line array systems. The Passport uses 8" woofers, the others a bunch of 4" speakers - the SPL cannot be much from these, yet is more than adequate for the venues I'm talkking about.

As far as plastic cabs, all the mid-range stuff is in plastic these days - even JBLs, KSCs and EVs. Backup in case 'sh*t happens' - that's why you've got 2 powered speakers, one goes out, ouch, but not the end of the world. An acoustic duo can't afford to haul around a second backup system.


It's probably all moot at this point - no duo partner, my wife is now 4-1/2 months unemployed, state unemployment runs out for her in 6 weeks. Probably best not to buy anything at this time (but I still have $250+ of 'mad money' in my Paypal account from selling old crap off on ebay!)

Everyone must decide which system best matches their needs. Always buy with your ears and not your wallet though. For my money Max SPL is one of the few meaningful details found on any sound reinforcement speaker spec sheet so I know what I am buying. I have little use for rated watts.

We have done dozens of acoustic gigs and we need 100db clean just to get above the din of a busy restaurant. Outdoors we need 110db minimum clean SPL for street fairs/farmers markets. The Behringers would be pushing pretty hard at that point running nearly wide open and probably not sound very good. That single JBL EON (max 127db SPL) on Craigslist would produce a lot more clean music coverage than 2 Behringers for only $175. A slam dunk for an acoustic gig on a budget.

Spec sheet: http://www.zzounds.com/item--JBLEON15P

Nice pick up there Thejohnny7band and good info.

Here is my issue with powered speakers.
Color me silly if I'm off base here.

sh*t happens, right ?
I always have an extra amp in my rack . . . lot easier than carting around a 280 lb speaker.
And yes sh*t happens to passive speakers also. And yes I carry extra usually set up for the visual effect.
Not as large as my main towers but could be utilized in a pinch.
Also . . . in a lot of the "venues" I end up in the power supply is iffy.
I'm lucky if anyone involved can show me where the breakers are.
Long runs of power cord eat amps ( I forget the math ) and brown outs or blown breakers are a real show stopper.

Probably irrelevant in the application GuitarMikeB is alluding to.
Just food for thought / debate.

George, I carry a circuit finder and a fine point sharpie in my gig bag. You can find a circuit finder kit at home depot or lowes in the electrical tool section they are approx. $30.00. It is a 2 piece tool. It has a plug thingy that you plug into the outlet just as you would a chord end then you go to the circuit panel and wave the wand thingy (slowly) across the breakers the wand thingy lights up and sounds off when you are over the proper breaker. Then I take the sharpie and mark the breaker. This allows me to seperate the power amps so as to not draw to many amps through a circuit thus tripping the breaker. I try to put my tops and subs on different breakers. Also because they are marked you and any bands that come behind you won't have the problem of isolating the circuit breakers. These days when I play a new club I just ask where is your circuit panel!

That single JBL EON (max 127db SPL) on Craigslist would produce a lot more clean music coverage than 2 Behringers for only $175. A slam dunk for an acoustic gig on a budget.

I've never seen a working EON go for that low a price, but would snap one up in a heartbeat if I did. They are usually in the $400 range used.
Also consider they weigh about 50 lbs. My friend used a pair of these for his solo acoustic show and never got them turned anywhere over '2', and started using just one for shows, and a small monitor for himself - even then it was too much and he almost broke his back one night pulling the sucker off the speaker stand! Now he uses the Fishman system and it's too loud for the same place!

I never see ANY powered speakers on local (Boston) CL.

That single JBL EON (max 127db SPL) on Craigslist would produce a lot more clean music coverage than 2 Behringers for only $175. A slam dunk for an acoustic gig on a budget.

I've never seen a working EON go for that low a price, but would snap one up in a heartbeat if I did. They are usually in the $400 range used.

I never see ANY powered speakers on local (Boston) CL.

Haha,
That one IS on your local Boston Craigslist now! There are also several of the smaller JBL EON 10s.

And you are right. One JBL EON 15P is all you really need to cover an acoustic show. A lot of bang for the buck indeed.

You see . . . this is why I say people whom dis this site are full of crap.

I learn so much in a few minutes of reading from people who are out there actually doing it.


I love you guys !


( not in a carnal way of course )

Haha,
That one IS on your local Boston Craigslist now! There are also several of the smaller JBL EON 10s.

And you are right. One JBL EON 15P is all you really need to cover an acoustic show. A lot of bang for the buck indeed.

I'll take a look for it after work. I typically only look through the NW/Merrimack seciton of the Boston CL.

Not that I'll get it - doubt the guy takes Paypal!

[Haha,
That one IS on your local Boston Craigslist now! There are also several of the smaller JBL EON 10s.

And you are right. One JBL EON 15P is all you really need to cover an acoustic show. A lot of bang for the buck indeed.

Chances are it wasn't working - guy never responded to my inquiry, I asked for some details.

Until I actually have an acoustic partner, it doesn't make sense at this time to invest in speakers that will be gathering dust. My wife's got less than 6 weeks left on her unemployment benefits now.

George, I carry a circuit finder and a fine point sharpie in my gig bag. You can find a circuit finder kit at home depot or lowes in the electrical tool section they are approx. $30.00. It is a 2 piece tool. It has a plug thingy that you plug into the outlet just as you would a chord end then you go to the circuit panel and wave the wand thingy (slowly) across the breakers the wand thingy lights up and sounds off when you are over the proper breaker. Then I take the sharpie and mark the breaker. This allows me to seperate the power amps so as to not draw to many amps through a circuit thus tripping the breaker. I try to put my tops and subs on different breakers. Also because they are marked you and any bands that come behind you won't have the problem of isolating the circuit breakers. These days when I play a new club I just ask where is your circuit panel!

That's the smartest thing I heard all month..takes the guess work out of the equation as well.

George, I carry a circuit finder and a fine point sharpie in my gig bag. You can find a circuit finder kit at home depot or lowes in the electrical tool section they are approx. $30.00. It is a 2 piece tool. It has a plug thingy that you plug into the outlet just as you would a chord end then you go to the circuit panel and wave the wand thingy (slowly) across the breakers the wand thingy lights up and sounds off when you are over the proper breaker. Then I take the sharpie and mark the breaker. This allows me to seperate the power amps so as to not draw to many amps through a circuit thus tripping the breaker. I try to put my tops and subs on different breakers. Also because they are marked you and any bands that come behind you won't have the problem of isolating the circuit breakers. These days when I play a new club I just ask where is your circuit panel!

That's the smartest thing I heard all month..takes the guess work out of the equation as well.

I can't take credit for it. I watched a friend (degree'd engineer) do it. I ain't that smart LOL!