Musician Gear & Tech Discussion

All I know is that I had Tung-Sol 6550's in my jcm 800 1959.

They were tasty until they ate themselves.

And the Sovtek 5881's are the worst crap I ever heard.

It was suggested that I should replace them with Svetlana 6l6GC's in a matched quad and similar replacement 12AT7's, 12AX7a's and 7025's.

What is live and what is Memorex is unknown at this juncture to me. lol

"He still has his stock power tubes in his amp. "

so by your own words sans' amp SOUNDS LIKE CRAP??!?!?!?!?!?!?!

THAT'S WHAT YOU SAID MORON... THAT HE HAS CRAP IN HIS AMP, AND IF HE USES ONE NON NOS TUBE HIS AMP SOUNDS LIKE sh*t???!?!?!?!?

but a minute ago you were saying how it made his amp sound great??!?!

Uh.. Excuse me?

Not once have I discussed power tubes in this whole thread.


.

For the record.. Power tubes account for very little of the "sound" your amp produces. I've already said in the past, Mike has his concepts backward.

Ok so..

I have to be gone for a while. Our album recording starts today.

Rather than continue with this nonsense, I'm gonna be doing what I was born to do.

As my one and only peace offering, I'm going to refer you guys to the best tube experts on the net.

http://forum.grailtone.com/viewforum.ph ... 8bb7baaf22

Although it's a Mesa website, they will answer any questions you may have about any amplifier.

Scott, you should seek out 212Mavguy and Stokes about your Fender questions. Keep in mind, they are also amp techs, so your questions aren't limited to tubes. I think you'll be pleasantly surprised by their knowledge.

Mike, if you ever really want to truly understand what you don't know about tubes and their relationships with amplifiers. Seek out 212Mavguy and Timbrewolf. Timbrewolf is the most knowledgeable tube person on the entire internet, and it would definitely be your privilege to get any advice from him. You have been grossly misinformed by your "guy". Only solution is to educate yourself. He's the best, bar none.

All bashing aside, all brick-wall slamming by the wayside, these guys have the knowledge you need to seek out. They are extremely nice, and will help you. It never hurts to get to know them. And that goes for anyone on Bandmix who runs across this.

Anyway.. Gotta Album to record fellas.

Peace.

I extended the olive branch a few posts ago shredd, and you declined.

Despite that, and despite your backhanded method of delivering your peace offering, I accept.

I know that in any given argument between two people: no one person can be all right nor one all wrong.

On the one hand... you haven't told me anything I didn't already know about NOS tubes -I have agreed all along: for the most part they ARE better.

On the other hand all the brand new mohaves, matchless, mesa boogie, cornford, zinky, budda, deisel, orange, marshal, fender and others all use brand new tubes... none of which sound like crap 'out of the box' to me.

the truth probably lies somewhere in the middle.

I have to disagree on the power tubes comment for three reasons...
to start...
The stage 1 tube in ANY amp is going to have the greatest impact on your tone... - this is electronics 101.
if you have microphonic/noise/tone problems this is where you look first because this tube does the most 'work'. So in short... one COULD make the argument that the ONLY tube that matters is this one.

second...
The remaining pre tubes have about the same impact as the power tubes have on tone - IME.

finally...
I think you are a little confused about the impact power tubes have and there are pages upon pages of debate online regarding 'how 6l6s sounds completely different than a el84s,' etc... that would seem to back that assumption up.

After all, If the very format of the tube makes a 'huge' difference (according to some) then it would follow that the quality of tube would make a significant difference as well, if only significant relative to the pre tubes, the speaker, the regulation of the power from the wall...


chow

So you're saying.. You don't need... any.. help.

Yea..

And I'm the one confused.

shredd I'm certain there are things about tubes that I don't know and could probably learn from your 'buddy'... but none of those things are going to enhance my ability to go to the tube depot and buy a set of NOS tubes (of which I already have several) except for maybe the rare case where I'm trying to retube a vintage tremolux or bassman.

are you seriously suggesting that not only do I need NOS tubes, but I can't just spend $600 a set of telefunkens or JAN GEs - I need a set specifically sanctioned by you or your friends?

your ego knows no bounds shredd and when you said 'powertubes don't make a big difference at all' your credibility went out the window.

finally...
I think you are a little confused about the impact power tubes have and there are pages upon pages of debate online regarding 'how 6l6s sounds completely different than a el84s,' etc... that would seem to back that assumption up.

You're comparing apples to oranges. This is comparing types not brands of the same type. All amps are different in their makeups in the way they are wired. That in itself creates different tones. Naturally an amp designed for 6l6s will sound different than an amp designed for el84s. My Mesa was designed to be able to utilize two different types. 6l6s and el34s. There was a difference in a tighter bottom end and the top end compressed with el34s. That's because the power section is responsible for response and feel more than anything else. But when I made a switch between Mesa and TAD el34, there was no discernible difference between them. The same goes for the differences between about 5 different 6l6 power tube brands I ran through the amp, and Mesas are extremely responsive and transparent to tube changes. The differences between NOS power tubes and modern in my Gibson amp weren't enough to warrant the cost. I turned them right around.

For Sans to all of the sudden take his brand new GTs and swap them for NOS in the power section, he would only be gaining power tubes which are generally more durable and would last longer, but a difference in sound would be minimal. I never said there was NO difference.. Just not enough to matter or warrant the cost difference for what little "sound" difference would occur. It's a whole different issue than the preamp is.

[/i]

shredd I'm certain there are things about tubes that I don't know and could probably learn from your 'buddy'... but none of those things are going to enhance my ability to go to the tube depot and buy a set of NOS tubes (of which I already have several) except for maybe the rare case where I'm trying to retube a vintage tremolux or bassman.

The only NOS you mentioned having were United branded mystery tubes. If you bought them from Tube Depot, then you would know more about what you have. United is not a manufacturer, and they wouldn't sell them as such without the real manufacturer in the description.

Tube Depot is a ripoff. They mark their stuff up to an insane degree.

are you seriously suggesting that not only do I need NOS tubes, but I can't just spend $600 a set of telefunkens or JAN GEs - I need a set specifically sanctioned by you or your friends?

If you spend $600 on a set of Telefunkens or JANs, you have a thick skull. Telefunkens in reality aren't the best for Tube amps. I can think of plenty others I'd rather utilize. JANs are cool, but still not necessarily a grail-tone if you just buy a whole set of them and pop 'em in your amp. I know it gets tossed around a lot of Fender forums that they are the s**t, but I can still think of others I'd rather have in my Fender. They can be a bit dark sounding. And they certainly shouldn't cost you $600. Unless you want to buy them from me!!! I'd be more than happy to sell you a set of 'em for that much.

You still don't understand how this process works. The people I mentioned could absolutely design an optimum preamp setup tailored to anyone's wishes and needs. It's never ego driven with them, it's all in the joy they get in helping people. These guys aren't tube snobs like you're a pedal snob. They give solid sensible advice that doesn't involve just suggesting anyone just break their wallets on Telefunkens, especially when they know there are better sounding tubes out there that cost much less. I know of one particular NOS tube you should never spend more than $25 on that kills a Telefunken in tone.

your ego knows no bounds shredd and when you said 'powertubes don't make a big difference at all' your credibility went out the window.

You have a window??

again, I don't think you know all you think you know about tubes. If you don't know how to design an amp, and you don't know how important power tubes are... then you don't have any credibility with me... PERIOD.

for the record my uniteds were bought at a 'going out of biz sale'... they are american made NOS tubes I paid $15ea for and have read that they are considered 'pretty decent'.


"The people I mentioned could absolutely design an optimum preamp setup tailored to anyone's wishes and needs."

1) if you think you/they have "special advice" that can yield an especially good set of tubes for an amp w/o ever auditioning them... well it just points out how little you know about tubes AGAIN.

Each one is different. Even two NOS tubes made in the same factory in the same year will sound entirely different.
So this advice of yours = crap.

They guy I currently buy tubes from lets me bring my amps in and audition several sets and decide what I think is best...
oh, and he actually knows how to build a tube amp... not just pop off at the mouth about his secondhand tube knowledge.


2) If we are talking about a pre cbs bassman... sure, I would def want to go find a rare set that was as similar as possible to the the original spec... this is because the original amp was designed to run on those tubes.

if we are talking about a mesa subway rocket... then nos tubes might not be the best solution. a modern amp was not designed to use nos tubes. and to say that that amp WILL sound better with a set of NOS tubes that you haven't even auditioned is about as silly as saying power tubes don't matter.


here's what gibson says on the subject...
[url]
http://www.gibson.com/en-us/Lifestyle/F ... o-get-the/[/url]

on how output tubes do matter:
"In addition to having their own sonic characteristics according to type, different makes of the same types of output tubes will also sound slightly different."

they also have a little section about tubes and suggest that NOS is not ALWAYS the best...
they also talk about true bypass and how it may or may not be the best solution if you have ONLY A FEW PEDALS!!!!!!!!!!!


yet another source suggesting that your "magic beans" aren't all that magic after all...

http://www.tdpri.com/forum/archive/index.php/t-40202.html

"Beware….just because a tube was made long ago & has never been used does not make it a 'great tube'. I once had a customer come check out one of my amps {loaded with JJ ECC83S-12AX7A tubes}. It sounded nice and he loved the amp & was ready to buy, then told me of his commitment to NOS tubes. He loaded up my amp with expensive mullard tubes that he had brought with him, and the amp sounded awful! Noisy, static, you name it. He looked at me and said 'what's wrong with your amp?
...
NOS tubes are not the best application with every amp."



here's another guy that does amp repair and seems to disagree with "your highness" about NOS tubes... and look - he has a list of recognizable clients he does work for.... wha?

who do you do work for again?

"I studied electronics in my last year of High School and in my local Community College and graduated with honors in 1979."

where is your degree from???????????

[url]
http://www.andrewsamplab.com/aal_difference.htm[/url]

"Many Russian and eastern European tubes are as good or better than some NOS alternatives and are much more attractively priced. We use carefully chosen selections from this category for most work. The choices are based on tube reliability experience and listening tests as well as the amp application.

Recently, several new tubes have appeared on the market that are much improved over what was available in years passed. I am constantly on the lookout for the latest news and I try as many new tubes as possible. When I find a good tube for a reasonable price, I use it."


to stare evidence like this in the face and still be unwilling to admit that it is AT LEAST POSSIBLE that NOS is not always best is like burying your head in the sand. But then you did the same thing with true bypass vs buffered bypass so why should I be surprised?

I CAN ADMIT THAT SOMETIMES NOS IS BETTER. I CAN ADMIT THAT SOMETIMES BUFFERED BYPASS IS OK... SO WHO'S THE ELITIST HERE?

Man, I could not read all 60 billion of these posts, but I think everything was said in the first 5 posts.

"True Bypass" is EXTREMELY easy to achieve in a foot stomper. It may be more complicated in a multi-effect floor unit (with cab modelling, all digital controls, etc.). On a footswitch though, all you have to do is make the switch a SPDT (Single Pole Double Throw). That means one throw leads into the pedal imput. The other throw is basically just a wire. That's it. You shouldn't pay for that. It's too easy to build, and there is basically no extra cost incurred.

Wow, this reminds me of the argument blind men had over describing an elephant. Yes true bypass matters... to the point you can hear the difference. But I know folks who want to argue over a Wireless system "not" affecting your sound.

It's completely ignorant... Wireless systems compress your signal before transmission, and then decompress the signal after it reaches the receiver. To my ear, and many others its a noticeable affect, and you have to decide for yourself if being "wireless" is worth the compromise.

To other ears there is no difference (?!?) and its a cost issue.

There are also many considerations... live should put more of the focus on the show performance, and less on the tone. Studio settings on the other hand... well, I think its self explanatory.

Squires can be fine guitars... if you spend enough time and money on them to make them so. Being thrifty will reduce that cost... but it doesn't change the fact that a Squire does not come off the shelf ready to play a show (NEW), whereas an American Strat should.

The true failure in our world here is not the Squire rising above its place... but the American made Strat failing to meet the cost difference. Same with Gibsons. I wouldn't buy a brand new Gibson today... no matter how badly I want one. Its more than principle, I understand that one in 5 meets my expectations of what a $2000 guitar should be.

I read this whole thread and am disgusted on many levels.

1- Why do most of the musician forums degenerate discussions that should OBVIOUSLY BE ACCEPTED AS OPINION into an argument? A heated unwinnable argument over something that cannot be answered in black or white. Strat or Paul... Tube or transistor... all of these things have their place and cannot be discounted by anyone entirely.

2- That two or more otherwise intelligent and likable folks could arrive at the forum equivalent of bloodshed over what... anything here Earth-shattering? Are we discussing taking a life here? Are the stakes of this debate so great that we would insult each other?

3- That I read 5 posts about true bypass and 6 freakin pages of two folks who are more alike than different... and at the end they are just as far apart as Country and Western... Didn't the cowpokes hate the sod farmers? Makes about as much since as you two arguing when your both right and your both wrong... depending on circumstance and the listening ear.

And according to theory, Roger and John Mayer are kin... Brothers in Tone if for no other reason. As are most of us in this forum kin... because only brothers and sisters fight like Ya'll do.

All of one organism soiling its nest with this sort of discord and malice everywhere I look.

Kudos to MikeV for offering the olive branch repeatedly, to Capt. Scott for attempting to parley his brothers...

And of course to Shredder for the Recording and gigs.

Wow, this reminds me of the argument blind men had over describing an elephant. Yes true bypass matters... to the point you can hear the difference. But I know folks who want to argue over a Wireless system "not" affecting your sound.

It's completely ignorant... Wireless systems compress your signal before transmission, and then decompress the signal after it reaches the receiver. To my ear, and many others its a noticeable affect, and you have to decide for yourself if being "wireless" is worth the compromise.

To other ears there is no difference (?!?) and its a cost issue.

Dewy, altho I agree with you 100% about wireless... it's insensitive comments like "it's ignorant" that put folks on their defensive and cause big arguments... so to think you are any less prone to such things is not accurate.
It's the internet... folks argue. The important thing is that in the end we don't take it too seriously and hold anything against each other.

There are also many considerations... live should put more of the focus on the show performance, and less on the tone. Studio settings on the other hand... well, I think its self explanatory.

Squires can be fine guitars... if you spend enough time and money on them to make them so. Being thrifty will reduce that cost... but it doesn't change the fact that a Squire does not come off the shelf ready to play a show (NEW), whereas an American Strat should.

The true failure in our world here is not the Squire rising above its place... but the American made Strat failing to meet the cost difference. Same with Gibsons. I wouldn't buy a brand new Gibson today... no matter how badly I want one. Its more than principle, I understand that one in 5 meets my expectations of what a $2000 guitar should be.

Squires ARE fine guitars... I don't think I've ever said anything different... but setting the action, intonation, and swapping out the electronics is not going to change the stamped metal parts, 6 piece agathis body, less desirable neck grain, plastic nut, and poor fretwork. Like a wireless system: how much of a difference does this make... to some a huge one, to others - nothing.

I read this whole thread and am disgusted on many levels.

1- Why do most of the musician forums degenerate discussions that should OBVIOUSLY BE ACCEPTED AS OPINION into an argument? A heated unwinnable argument over something that cannot be answered in black or white. Strat or Paul... Tube or transistor... all of these things have their place and cannot be discounted by anyone entirely.

2- That two or more otherwise intelligent and likable folks could arrive at the forum equivalent of bloodshed over what... anything here Earth-shattering? Are we discussing taking a life here? Are the stakes of this debate so great that we would insult each other?

3- That I read 5 posts about true bypass and 6 freakin pages of two folks who are more alike than different... and at the end they are just as far apart as Country and Western... Didn't the cowpokes hate the sod farmers? Makes about as much since as you two arguing when your both right and your both wrong... depending on circumstance and the listening ear.

And according to theory, Roger and John Mayer are kin... Brothers in Tone if for no other reason. As are most of us in this forum kin... because only brothers and sisters fight like Ya'll do.

All of one organism soiling its nest with this sort of discord and malice everywhere I look.

Kudos to MikeV for offering the olive branch repeatedly, to Capt. Scott for attempting to parley his brothers...

And of course to Shredder for the Recording and gigs.

I'm as guilty as anyone for taking an argument too personal... it's tuff to disagree completely and not hold a grudge.
I don't think we can stop the world from arguing and taking pot shots at each other, but I can certainly do my part in forgiving and forgetting... and I think all involved parties will as well, if only in time.

I say its ignorant in the true meaning of the word... ignorant of the facts. They do not understand what "compressing" the signal does or how it changes the sound... so they have no Idea what to listen for.

I was using the Squire as a foil for a larger point... about USA Strat's actually. I don't have a problem with cheap guitars... as long as they are kept in a bedroom or properly updates with machined components... which of course tosses out the window the purpose of buying a cheap guitar in the first place.

I have a $99 Dean Evo sitting right here by the computer. Intonation is correct, plays decent... better than some $400 guitars I have had. But its not for stage work... and before I spend the cash to make it stage ready, I'll buy something made from Mahogany and upgrade ITS cheap parts.

On the topic of me being LESS prone to have these arguments, that's not the case. I unfortunately have found myself in these same rows with folks... trying to talk religion, politics, music, child rearing, ect... and time and time again my musician brethren are incapable of having a conversation without degenerating into drooling idiots and trying to drag me down into an insult fest with them.

Case in point... people not knowing the true meaning of "you're ignorant" over the wireless debate. I'll concede it doesn't make that much difference in a smokey bar (until someone tries to microwave a burrito). But I've dealt with true idiots who want to use them in a recording setting... or at practice.

I'm opinionated... I'm very much the way I am thru much investigation into "how I should be" and when I am in proximity with someone who disagrees and can't be mollified... I've had many a confrontation.

Arguing with Drummers who want to do Skynryd songs with one guitar in the band... bass players that want to do Floyd without Keyboards (which can be done on a few tunes)... and I compromise.

But the internet arguing thing is really getting old. Who's the guy who runs around this forum with the beautiful Husky/ Malamute in his avatar? Its him and his ilk all over the internets pissing on the precepts manners or even grammar. They are the true "lost boys"... I reach out in this conversation because I felt some respect for both of the folks caught up in the discussion.

Wow, this reminds me of the argument blind men had over describing an elephant. Yes true bypass matters... to the point you can hear the difference. But I know folks who want to argue over a Wireless system "not" affecting your sound.

It's completely ignorant... Wireless systems compress your signal before transmission, and then decompress the signal after it reaches the receiver. To my ear, and many others its a noticeable affect, and you have to decide for yourself if being "wireless" is worth the compromise.

To other ears there is no difference (?!?) and its a cost issue.

There are also many considerations... live should put more of the focus on the show performance, and less on the tone. Studio settings on the other hand... well, I think its self explanatory.

Squires can be fine guitars... if you spend enough time and money on them to make them so. Being thrifty will reduce that cost... but it doesn't change the fact that a Squire does not come off the shelf ready to play a show (NEW), whereas an American Strat should.

The true failure in our world here is not the Squire rising above its place... but the American made Strat failing to meet the cost difference. Same with Gibsons. I wouldn't buy a brand new Gibson today... no matter how badly I want one. Its more than principle, I understand that one in 5 meets my expectations of what a $2000 guitar should be.

I read this whole thread and am disgusted on many levels.

1- Why do most of the musician forums degenerate discussions that should OBVIOUSLY BE ACCEPTED AS OPINION into an argument? A heated unwinnable argument over something that cannot be answered in black or white. Strat or Paul... Tube or transistor... all of these things have their place and cannot be discounted by anyone entirely.

2- That two or more otherwise intelligent and likable folks could arrive at the forum equivalent of bloodshed over what... anything here Earth-shattering? Are we discussing taking a life here? Are the stakes of this debate so great that we would insult each other?

3- That I read 5 posts about true bypass and 6 freakin pages of two folks who are more alike than different... and at the end they are just as far apart as Country and Western... Didn't the cowpokes hate the sod farmers? Makes about as much since as you two arguing when your both right and your both wrong... depending on circumstance and the listening ear.

And according to theory, Roger and John Mayer are kin... Brothers in Tone if for no other reason. As are most of us in this forum kin... because only brothers and sisters fight like Ya'll do.

All of one organism soiling its nest with this sort of discord and malice everywhere I look.

Kudos to MikeV for offering the olive branch repeatedly, to Capt. Scott for attempting to parley his brothers...

And of course to Shredder for the Recording and gigs.

I didn't read much except the fact that a wireless will FAQ your expected tone.

I never met a wireless I liked and I don't play metal either.. lol

And if Roger Mayer and John Mayer are related in any way, shape or form, they should be loaded into a barrel and made to fight to the death.

(My $ is on Roger) lol