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Ever hear of "Roger Mayer" effects?

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#103841 by mistermikev
Wed Mar 17, 2010 1:26 am
Dewy wrote:I say its ignorant in the true meaning of the word... ignorant of the facts. They do not understand what "compressing" the signal does or how it changes the sound... so they have no Idea what to listen for.


not sure there's a nice way to call folks ignorant... but I get your drift.



Dewy wrote:I was using the Squire as a foil for a larger point... about USA Strat's actually. I don't have a problem with cheap guitars... as long as they are kept in a bedroom or properly updates with machined components... which of course tosses out the window the purpose of buying a cheap guitar in the first place.


just wanted to point out that the only reason I ever said anything about squires is because "if you are going to rag on me about x,y,z and you play a squire..." well I'm going to poke as many holes in your logic as possible.

Truth be told I am amazed at the quality of a $175 guitar these days... I think back to the lotus brand of my yester year... cnc has truly narrowed (not closed) the gap between the bottom end and the top.



Dewy wrote:On the topic of me being LESS prone to have these arguments, that's not the case. I unfortunately have found myself in these same rows with folks... trying to talk religion, politics, music, child rearing, ect... and time and time again my musician brethren are incapable of having a conversation without degenerating into drooling idiots and trying to drag me down into an insult fest with them.

I've reconciled myself to the belief that that's just how it is and you have to have a thick shell but you also have to forgive and forget.

Dewy wrote:Case in point... people not knowing the true meaning of "you're ignorant" over the wireless debate. I'll concede it doesn't make that much difference in a smokey bar (until someone tries to microwave a burrito). But I've dealt with true idiots who want to use them in a recording setting... or at practice.

I have a wireless... it's been sitting un-plugged for years... not because I'm a tone guru... I hear a difference, and I just don't see much of an advantage.





Dewy wrote:I'm opinionated... I'm very much the way I am thru much investigation into "how I should be" and when I am in proximity with someone who disagrees and can't be mollified... I've had many a confrontation.

Arguing with Drummers who want to do Skynryd songs with one guitar in the band... bass players that want to do Floyd without Keyboards (which can be done on a few tunes)... and I compromise.

But the internet arguing thing is really getting old. Who's the guy who runs around this forum with the beautiful Husky/ Malamute in his avatar? Its him and his ilk all over the internets pissing on the precepts manners or even grammar. They are the true "lost boys"... I reach out in this conversation because I felt some respect for both of the folks caught up in the discussion.


careful... when you point a finger at someone your other three point back at you.
I don't think those folks ruin the internet... they ARE the internet.
Still I will take your point and try to hold back a little longer before hurling insults.

#103877 by Shredd6
Wed Mar 17, 2010 9:58 am
Do you get it now Dewey??

This dude's f**king stupid.

#103913 by Starfish Scott
Wed Mar 17, 2010 2:51 pm
I have to laugh..

I'll have some more chocolate drama and ano9ther coff33 please.. lol

#103981 by mistermikev
Thu Mar 18, 2010 2:28 am
i see you haven't managed to 'get over it' shredd. I'm truly sorry to see that.

afa I know neither dewy nor myself were doing anything more than having a friendly debate, not even really disagreeing with each other... no name calling, no hurling insults... then you came back in.

#104115 by Dewy
Fri Mar 19, 2010 3:18 pm
Yeah, hate to disappoint Shredd, but as far as I can tell, Mike is right and you were pretty "assertive" in your opinion.

Not to discount your opinion... I was agreeing with you to a good degree when considering live performances. There is a degree to which being a tone "snob" does not help... and live is certainly a more forgiving setting than studio for that.

That said... I agree with Mike that pedals and other gear substantially affect the tone, and am a stickler for certain "sounds". Most "distortion" pedals and almost EVERY modeler I have toyed with has a very unpleasing distortion. I personally insist on tube amps... with some sort of tube "screamer" in front... effects generally patched thru the effects loop.

Having looked at your pedal board I see some great pedals there... but I can almost assure you that I... and probably several folks who have an ear I respect could mess with your setup and get a more pleasing tone "TO OUR EARS"! Who knows... you might even notice the difference yourself. I'm not saying it matters live... I'm not saying it matters to you. I AM saying that it can make a noticeable difference.

I agreed that Squires can be fine guitars, if you sink enough time and cash into them... but that me and most folks who are qualified to do that sorta thing generally start upgrades on a better piece of wood. Not downing your choice... its a personal thing.

My major issue is the fact that you and Mike were "debating" in a heated fashion over something that is subjective to a personal ear. On that point, I agree with Mike, tone suck does occur, Cheap tubes can sound better in some amps than gold tips, and you could have a better chunk of wood to bolt all of those parts onto than a Squire.

#104158 by Starfish Scott
Fri Mar 19, 2010 7:58 pm
Dewy you are sticking your head in the guillotine to see if it's operational.

(not recommended) lol

#104236 by Dewy
Sat Mar 20, 2010 4:08 pm
Just so long as I'm not held liable for chipped blades.

#104254 by mistermikev
Sat Mar 20, 2010 5:13 pm
Capt. Scott wrote:Dewy you are sticking your head in the guillotine to see if it's operational.

(not recommended) lol


if a man is held in contempt for simply holding an opinion that doesn't agree with yours then what is the point of these threads?

dewy... you are a voice of reason despite consequence. I admire you for that... whether you agree with me or not.

#104371 by Shredd6
Mon Mar 22, 2010 11:23 am
Dewy wrote:
That said... I agree with Mike that pedals and other gear substantially affect the tone, and am a stickler for certain "sounds". Most "distortion" pedals and almost EVERY modeler I have toyed with has a very unpleasing distortion. I personally insist on tube amps... with some sort of tube "screamer" in front... effects generally patched thru the effects loop.


Are you sure you two really agree on this? Best not reveal the pedals you use for your pedal choices otherwise Mike might unleash the fury of the Lord Of The Pedal Nerds on you. By the way, in case you can't tell, Mike's main hobby is building pedals. I'd bet he has 10 Dist pedals. So which would you say he prefers? Not so sure you two are on the same page here.

Having looked at your pedal board I see some great pedals there... but I can almost assure you that I... and probably several folks who have an ear I respect could mess with your setup and get a more pleasing tone "TO OUR EARS"! Who knows... you might even notice the difference yourself. I'm not saying it matters live... I'm not saying it matters to you. I AM saying that it can make a noticeable difference.


How do you know that?? You've never heard my rig. And by saying that, you are basically saying that I'm not as professional with my own rig as you or people you personally trust. What are you basing that on if you know nothing about me? I can assure you that there are many people here in Vegas who trust me to do that kind of thing for them.

I agreed that Squires can be fine guitars, if you sink enough time and cash into them... but that me and most folks who are qualified to do that sorta thing generally start upgrades on a better piece of wood. Not downing your choice... its a personal thing.


This might surprise both of you here Dewey.. But I have a degree in woodworking. I've been a custom woodworker by trade for 20-years. The Squiers I use were selected for a reason. In fact, one of my Squiers is made up of Fender US parts from when they took over the plant in Ensenada. Even has a flamed maple neck. Cost me a whole $80 and certainly worth upgrading. The pickups I use now are custom made and cost a whole $25 a piece. The parts I use to wire them up really don't cost as much as most people think. A few CTS pots, good switch and a Sprague cap doesn't put much of a dent in ones wallet. I do all of my own wiring, neck setups, bridge adjustments, etc..

My Stagemaster guitars have necks that are every bit as well crafted as my high end Fenders and are neck-through designs. Too many people consider necks to be rocket-science when it's just not the case. Now that's not to say that every model of Squier is built with the craftsmanship of a Fender. But the are without a doubt certain models from certain periods and Countries, that do match the craftsmanship of Fenders that I consider pro guitars. The only real differences being the guts inside, smaller bridge width, and maybe inferior bridge saddles and tuners. Most definitely the cost. I don't think Fender offers Squiers in Nitro finish, but they use poly on Strats now as well. All replaceable and upgradable. I can honestly say that my MIK Stagemasters have been my most consistent guitars I own as far as staying in tune, and being very durable. I ran over one of them last year and it barely made a dent in it. The neck is still perfectly straight, bridge is fine, just had to replace the pots and switch. Not once have I even had to make a truss-rod adjustment on either of them. Alder bodied, neck-through, full thickness, solid guitars that really are very good. They weigh more than any of my other Fenders. Didn't pay more than $150 for either of them.

If you don't think Fender pieces together guitar bodies the same way Squier does, you might not want to strip the finish off of one of the painted ones. You might be in for a real surprise.

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This one even has a 1" piece sandwiched in it.

Image

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Even My 57AVRI has a pieced together body, and the neck isn't as well crafted as 3 of my Squiers. I had to file the frets on the side myself. And one of the bridge saddles was defective. So even the heavyweights have their flaws.

I'm not going to sit here and argue that Squier makes guitars as well as a lot of the high end Fenders do. There are a lot of cool bells and whistles that come with high end Fenders, but I know enough to know That I can squeeze out every bit as good of a tone out of certain models of Squires for much less of a price. And I DO know good craftsmanship when I see it. My CV Squier necks really aren't as good as a few of my other models, but they're as good as a MIM Fender.

I don't need a roller-nut, I don't need S-1 switching, I don't need a fancy paint-job, I don't need a V-neck (although I do like them), and I really don't care for a lot of their mass produced machine wound pickups. It would suit me fine to pick up a MIM Fender and pimp it out the where I want it for much less, which I can contend that the Squiers I own are already easily as good as or better than a MIM stock in the woodworking craftsmanship, wood selection, fretwork, and bridge dept. Most have smaller diameter tuners, but I haven't found that to be an issue so far. And being that I have smaller hands, it doesn't bother me to have a smaller bridge width.


My major issue is the fact that you and Mike were "debating" in a heated fashion over something that is subjective to a personal ear. On that point, I agree with Mike, tone suck does occur, Cheap tubes can sound better in some amps than gold tips, and you could have a better chunk of wood to bolt all of those parts onto than a Squire.


On the tube issue.. I can't agree with you on that for reasons I've already given. On the tone sucking, we ran my pedal board to hear a difference in the recording studio, and found no noticeable difference. You would have to either be a dog or have a measuring device to come to any other conclusion.

COULD I find a better chunk of wood than what I have with my Squiers?? Maybe. I do own a couple high end guitars. I already have the pleasure of enjoying both spectrums. My Squiers can be used for any pro application. We used 5 distinctively different guitars and 5 different amps (tube and solid state) to record our album. I'll be sure to offer the challenge of picking out the higher end from the lower end when the time comes.

If your biggest issue is that I don't bow down to Mike and his bullshit, then I don't know what to tell you. Feel free to deal with his punk-ass all you want.

mistermikev wrote:Still I will take your point and try to hold back a little longer before hurling insults.


That should have given you a clue here. Had you continued to disagree with him about anything technical, that's exactly where he was intending to take your conversation.

#104375 by mistermikev
Mon Mar 22, 2010 12:08 pm
"Still I will take your point and try to hold back a little longer before hurling insults."
you are just convinced I'm the devil aren't you shredd...
I never meant by this statement that I would insult dewy... on the contrary I like the guy and don't believe we have even disagreed on anything. By this comment I meant that he was right about us getting all personal in our arguments, and that I was going to make an effort not to insult others, but stick to the debate at hand. And despite the fact that you continue to hurl insults (lord of the pedals?) I'm not going to sink to your level...

#104399 by Dewy
Mon Mar 22, 2010 3:27 pm
Here ya go Mike... "Shredd me" on my pedals and rig, in order:

Behringer Hell Babe Wah
Boss TU-2 Tuner
Digitech Bad Monkey

Peavey Valveking 50 watt 1-12" combo

Effects loop goes into a Behringer V-Amp 2 with the "modeler" section turned off and using it for its effects section.

So... it sucks. Much less than rigs costing twice as much, but considering the tone comparisons vs. $$$... I've very happy and have some room to grow.

I also have a few pedals that don't meet my approval, so they have been removed from the chain:

DOD Mini Chorus 460 which sounds good, but is mono and has an 1/8" power supply which does not work with my adapter.

DOD Compressor/ Sustainer FX80-B which also has the 1/8" power supply, and was full of dirt dobber nests when I got it, cleaned it up... but the V-Amp Compressor sounds better and has a noise threshold.

Washburn A-F4 Flanger which is super noisy.

Mike's main hobby is building pedals. I'd bet he has 10 Dist pedals.
When I am looking for someone to "believe"... this is exactly the sort of experience I look for. You seem to feel its a negative somehow... that he would be knowledgeable about the topic.

How do you know that?? You've never heard my rig.
I don't KNOW it... I assume it. The odds are in my favor the more pedals you have that I can re-arrange them in a manner more suitable to my ear. Doesn't mean you'd like it... or notice it. But if you have more than one pedal, the order DOES matter, the QUALITY matters, ect.

I can't tell you by listening to a live guitarist if the chorus is in the Effects loop or not, but I can usually tell by listening "something is wrong"... and 3 out of 5 times I later discover the guitarist "doesn't use his effects loop". i.e. the chorus/ flange/ aftermarket reverb/ delay is whooshing around thru the pre-amp while trying to maintain as pure an original signal as possible.

Those type of effects work better in my opinion... and the opinion of thousands of engineers and musicians, running thru the effects loop. That's why they make amps with them included. Its why knowledgeable folks record "dry" and add effects later.

And all of this is completely beyond the scope of the original post, but relevant. The point of "true bypass" AND Effects loops are similar. They are both designed to keep AS TRUE AS POSSIBLE the original signal.

A single "cheap pedal" or pedal with a signal buffer that does not bypass when turned off will actually improve the sound of a cheap rig by "regulating" the signal... like a voltage regulator in an electrical circuit.

Adding 5 of these buffers in a row effectively sterilizes the signal. That is why true bypass sounds better to discerning individuals. That your not noticing is not "proof" the rest of the world is wrong, it just means you don't notice it.

They weigh more than any of my other Fenders.

Does weight matter? Old school of thought says it does, new school of thought is carving out resonance chambers in Les Pauls and getting more sustain.

To some degree DENSITY matters, but not weight.

I'm glad you have a degree in woodworking... I'm glad you can do your own tech work... but you tout Squires to EVERYONE... and everyone does not have your skill. So your arguments are skewed... I agreed with you Squires CAN BE fine guitars... and that those who were thrifty and skilled could make them just as decent as a USA Strat.

And to convince me I was right you post pictures of stripped strats... or did you do that to convince me I was wrong about squires... I think you have confused me.

#104411 by Starfish Scott
Mon Mar 22, 2010 4:34 pm
I am starting to truly believe if you haven't owned/played a squire strat and some other kind of strat, preferably a few different strats, you just just have no fing clue.

I hear a whole lot of talking but again the experienced folks already know.

Once you feel it for yourself, the rest is merely talk.

The best is a project I was working on of late.

I took a no name strat body (prolly not even a fender at all) and refitted it with an American Fender Strat neck. I then had it professionally setup.

I took 5 guitars; a squire strat, a real fender american strat, 2 of my mijs and the project guitar that probably really isn't even a strat except for the neck. I obscured the neck info so he couldn't read it.

I let my buddy play them through his amp and asked him to pick out the project/pick the best sounding one/pick the overall best.

He picked the squire as best sounding (sunburst gets them every time), he picked one of my mijs as best playing and he picked my project guitar as the best overall. LMAO

I showed him the project closely and asked him if he thought anything was wrong with it. He thought it was a real American Powerhouse Strat and then I removed the neck and showed him the internals.

Fender makes crap. Fender does/did make good stuff, the problem is that the good stuff is nearly indistinguishable from the utter crap. And if you are handy at varnishing/staining/etc, you can fool the majority of the people.

(The next strat you buy should be unstrung and neck removed unless you want to buy someones' project guitar for top dollar, with fake decal on top)

If that doesn't bother you, come get mine. I assure you I will rob you right to your face and unless you look, you won't even know until you get home. lol (Maybe you won't even know then)

Moral: Play everything, disassemble everything (strings are cheap) and beware people who give you grief when you want to take the pick guard off to see what's going on down deep.

People are scummy. Act accordingly. Increase your own knowledge base by experiencing as many different guitars as possible. Be your own expert or suffer for the lack of it.

#104446 by Dewy
Mon Mar 22, 2010 9:34 pm
Well, I have played American Strats, Squires, Gibson's and Epiphones... and the price difference is dishonest. That's what I'm trying to get across.

I don't buy "name brand" anymore. I play, compare, inform myself about the choices I can make... and THEN spend my money.

I play a Solid Mahogany Parker PM20, One Piece Body, One Piece Neck, set neck with Ebony Fret board... and the folks at the Parker Forum all whine and bitch because its an "Indonesian" made guitar.

Well, I acknowledge that, and then inspect the guitar. Same factory makes Epi's, Washburn's, Schecter's, and of course... Squires. I'm not going to discount any one of those guitars from being a fine instrument... until I personally inspect it. Some ARE inferior... some are as good as or better than their high dollar counterparts.

But to just up and say squires are as good as USA Strats? No... not maybe, not with the original components. Additionally, you cannot tell every kid with $150 that an Indonesian Squire is equal to or better than a USA Strat.

IF you have the knowledge and skill you can pick out the ones with potential and upgrade them to a higher standard.

#104473 by mistermikev
Tue Mar 23, 2010 1:33 am
Dewy wrote:So... it sucks. Much less than rigs costing twice as much, but considering the tone comparisons vs. $$$... I've very happy and have some room to grow.


foa, I like some of shredds gear(gta)... but he's to angry to hear that part.

bad monkey is well respected analogue dirt pedal... buffered bypass but then I have several buffered pedals on my rig...




Dewy wrote:
Mike's main hobby is building pedals. I'd bet he has 10 Dist pedals.

When I am looking for someone to "believe"... this is exactly the sort of experience I look for. You seem to feel its a negative somehow... that he would be knowledgeable about the topic.


thank you sir, that's very kind, not sure I'll ever live up to that intro but thanks!



Dewy wrote:A single "cheap pedal" or pedal with a signal buffer that does not bypass when turned off will actually improve the sound of a cheap rig by "regulating" the signal... like a voltage regulator in an electrical circuit.

Adding 5 of these buffers in a row effectively sterilizes the signal. That is why true bypass sounds better to discerning individuals. That your not noticing is not "proof" the rest of the world is wrong, it just means you don't notice it.


well spoken.


Dewy wrote:I am starting to truly believe if you haven't owned/played a squire strat and some other kind of strat, preferably a few different strats, you just just have no fing clue.

I hear a whole lot of talking but again the experienced folks already know.

Once you feel it for yourself, the rest is merely talk.



lemme just say for the record... squires CAN be decent, and sure you can find a crap amer std off the rack that doesn't compare (play-wise) to a hot-rodded squire... truth is until you get to custom shop you are rolling the dice.

but to say that a hot rodded squire and an amer std are equivalent -top to bottom- is just not accurate at all.

once you get past the horrible tuning machines, awful stamped saddles, and crap electronics (I think we can all agree on that)...

you'd still have to contend with:

bone nut vs plastic???
stamped bridgeplate
neck grain is rarely tight
neck pocket is cut loose as a goose 1/2 the time
6 piece agathis body vs 2-3piece basswood or alder
amer stds typically have one solid chunk of wood from the pickup cavity upward vs squires with glue joints right in the 'tone zone'
fretwork is much better on americans

but yes, other than that they ARE very similar in quality.

by the time you level the frets, replace the nut(very important IMO), adjust the neck twenty times cause the wood isn't very rigid - then you strip the nut cause they used cheap chines metal on the truss and the bolt, replace the tuners, replace the string trees, replace the pots/jacks/wire/pickups/switches, replace the saddles (lets leave the crappy stamped bridge plate in just for argument)... you could have bought an american -they sell used for $450 all over the place.... or better yet... a warmoth/stewmac/allparts and american make it yourself.

#104480 by Dewy
Tue Mar 23, 2010 3:26 am
by the time you level the frets, replace the nut(very important IMO), adjust the neck twenty times cause the wood isn't very rigid - then you strip the nut cause they used cheap chines metal on the truss and the bolt, replace the tuners, replace the string trees, replace the pots/jacks/wire/pickups/switches, replace the saddles (lets leave the crappy stamped bridge plate in just for argument)... you could have bought an american -they sell used for $450 all over the place.... or better yet... a warmoth/stewmac/allparts and american make it yourself.
Or do all of that to any "decent cheap guitar"... but acknowledge it has $450 worth of luthier servicing and parts, and is no longer by definition "A Squire".

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