Musician Forum - Band Discussion Board - BandMix

Sorry, analog only here.. (80's crap that sounds warm)

Dude, this, too, has nothing to do with your questions - but I LOVE YOUR AVATAR!

I don't recommend Behringer equipment for two reasons -

#1 - no one will fix them

#2 - they aren't road-worthy

When they work, they sound fine, though. When they don't, you're screwed.

Good luck with whatever setup you choose.

I'd prolly compress each vocal, just to be safe.

Your keyboard player should work on levelling out his volumes between differing samples or stock sounds. That's part of his job as a musician, imho. I also have used hand signals on stage & that works fine.

Ditto for the bassist. Help him where needed, but encourage him to learn his craft. Keep in mind that those lows don't really come together until they're about 10-15 feet from the speakers. Compress any bass except a Ricky, cuz that ruins their unique sound.

I've always run out to the EQ, myself. That's just how I learned it & I never tried any other way.

And remember that every room is different, & that there's a gazillion ppl that will disagree with me on any given subject, esp in this area. That's just how I do things. Nothing is written in stone. You'll find what works for you after you fiddle with your stuff awhile & keep talking to the pros.

In our band, we set the mics so anyone can sing lead without changing the board. Singers also need to know their craft - knowing when to BACK OFF the mic when they're singing b/u's is an important part of that craft. We also don't bother compressing the vox.

I'd use separate channels on the compressor for each singer, but use it sparingly, or not too deep, or it becomes a wall of voices in spite of what you're trying to accomplish.

For what it's worth we also run our mic's about the same, a little variance as the boys have differing levels of power in their projection.
Some times the B/U has to do some vocal stuff that is really soft sonicly and the mic has to be hot enough to project that, and when belting out other parts he just has to learn to back off the mic some.
If everyone whom is singing always has the mic in their tonsils you will never get it balenced for the various songs.
Really not a lot different than a guitarest varying his attack for softer or more powerfull parts.
We also use no compression.
If your going to be dragging this stuff around on the road, expend what it takes to get the best of what you can budget on the basics.
Always considering "what if a component fails, then what"

I would put an eq coming out of your main out to your FOH and the same on your monitor. Ive never inserted them, not saying it wont work.

Your keys and bass player should learn to handle thier own levels with a thing called a volume knob. Most modern bass amps have compression built in.

Vocals you might want to insert one compressor into your lead singers channel, I like a compression limiting function just to keep a singers level even. It needs to float on top of the mix. You could group the backups to one compressor. I used to use compressors a lot but thru the years my band has gotten better at mic management. You know backing off when your screaming your brains out and moving in for the whispers. Compressors can get away from you, start off with a mellow curve. I always felt that if you are having to cut it too hard then you need to address the input. I would focus on getting your mix even without compression to start with and then listen to whats happening. The Alesis stuff we used had a bypass. Push it in and out and see what works for you.

I hope this helps some, but try to focus on sounded good without all the addons first then bring them into play. U know lining all that stuff in you could compress the whole mix, but personally I hate that cause it kinda kills your dynamics.

Lets us know whats going on as you start doing all this and maybe we can address it as you go.

Good Luck and Keep Rockin

TheDoctorMo wrote:I am planning on buying a Behringer XENYX XL1600 mixer, very soon. This is a 16ch mixer with inserts on each input channel, inserts on each of the four subgroups and inserts on the main stereo outs.

I currently have an stereo compressor/limiter that has a single set of controls for both channels.

We also have a dual-channel compressor/limiter with distinct channel controls.

Finally, we are using a pair of Behringer 15" powered speakers, for the FOH speakers. (No subs yet.) In addition, we will have two Behringer 12" powered speakers for stage monitors.

I plan on purchasing two stereo 31-band EQs (one for mains and one for monitors).

I may also get a four-channel compressor/limiter based on the advice for my questions, below.

Our band lineup is:
3 vocal mics (1 female, 2 male)
1 keyboard submix coming from a Behringer keyboard mixer/amplifier
1 guitar coming from a Digitech GSP-1101
1 guitar either from a line-out or mic
1 drum submix from an external mixer
1 bass guitar

My ultimate goal is to make sure we have a good mix and that the other members don't blow my speakers.

Here are my questions:

1. How many compression channels will I need? Do I need a single compression channel for each vocal or just one for the vocal subgroup? How will backup vocals be affected by a powerful lead vocal, if the vocal subgroup is compressed, rather than each vocal channel?

2. I need to even out the keyboardist's volume. The same goes for the bassist when some notes are very boomy and some notes are barely audible. Should these be compressed, individually or with the main mix?

3. How do I decide when to compress a single channel rather than a subgroup or the entire mix?

4. Where do I place the EQs, in the signal chain? Do I add the EQ to the main mix's insert path, or do I run from the mixer's outputs to the EQ? What is the difference between the two methods? (I don't have a choice with the two monitor mixes because they do not have an insert path.)

My accountant (wife) has given me permission to spend a bit of money ($1000-$1500) on this setup, but I want to do it as correct as possible. I plan on sticking to Behringer products because I like them and they are reasonably-priced.

Thanks for any suggestions you can provide regarding our band lineup and mixing goals.

mike

gtr and bass should both have a compressor right after the gtr/bass and b4 any amplification/fx.. this evens out picking/slapping dynamics b4 any tone shaping/dist.
It is crucial to be right after the instrument.

on a mic'ed setup you can use a mono channel comp and this should (almost always) be b4 anything else on that instrument.


you need one comp for the overall sound and one on the vocals
you can use one unit to do all three vocals... but if you have a particularly dynamic singer you might give them their own.

In my experience keyboardists don't have an issue with dynamics by themselves... so a vol setting works fine for fitting it in and that's on your mixer. If the key player uses multiple boards you give him a channel for each board.

drummer doesn't need a comp to him/herself if you've got several drum mics and do a good job evening out things in advance.

Ultimately you don't need any of them to be stereo... other than a master comp (assuming you are using stereo fx).

a limiter -NOT A COMPRESSOR is used to keep folks from blowing things.

I've read a few recording books, and have some experience doing live sound, and know my way around my mackie... and I've read 'rule number one' from several sources: eq's are for fixing mistakes.

They boost and cut noise so using them most likely adds noise. In addition they are redundant bcuz everyone in your band has an eq somewhere on their rig (besides the vocalist).

That said it is commonplace to use an eq to cut freq for each musician in order to get all instruments to 'fit' in the mix/divide up the headroom. Most mixers have a sufficient eq to accomplish this in my experience.
The important thing is to use them to cut only.

In my opinion, you want to get a nice fx unit for vocals (on the vocal channel insert) and an overall fx unit for the band(main insert), and if you've got money left over a unit for the drums (drummers rarely have their own - and a two channel unit will work nice to use one channel mono for the snare and one channel mono for the rest of the kit).

I've only done live sound on a handful of occasions, most of my experience is from recording... so take this all with a grain of salt.

[quote="TheDoctorMo"]I am planning on buying a Behringer XENYX XL1600 mixer, very soon. This is a 16ch mixer with inserts on each input channel, inserts on each of the four subgroups and inserts on the main stereo outs.

I currently have an stereo compressor/limiter that has a single set of controls for both channels.

We also have a dual-channel compressor/limiter with distinct channel controls.

Finally, we are using a pair of Behringer 15" powered speakers, for the FOH speakers. (No subs yet.) In addition, we will have two Behringer 12" powered speakers for stage monitors.

I plan on purchasing two stereo 31-band EQs (one for mains and one for monitors).

I may also get a four-channel compressor/limiter based on the advice for my questions, below.

Our band lineup is:
3 vocal mics (1 female, 2 male)
1 keyboard submix coming from a Behringer keyboard mixer/amplifier
1 guitar coming from a Digitech GSP-1101
1 guitar either from a line-out or mic
1 drum submix from an external mixer
1 bass guitar

My ultimate goal is to make sure we have a good mix and that the other members don't blow my speakers.

Here are my questions:

1. How many compression channels will I need? Do I need a single compression channel for each vocal or just one for the vocal subgroup? How will backup vocals be affected by a powerful lead vocal, if the vocal subgroup is compressed, rather than each vocal channel?

2. I need to even out the keyboardist's volume. The same goes for the bassist when some notes are very boomy and some notes are barely audible. Should these be compressed, individually or with the main mix?

3. How do I decide when to compress a single channel rather than a subgroup or the entire mix?

4. Where do I place the EQs, in the signal chain? Do I add the EQ to the main mix's insert path, or do I run from the mixer's outputs to the EQ? What is the difference between the two methods? (I don't have a choice with the two monitor mixes because they do not have an insert path.)

My accountant (wife) has given me permission to spend a bit of money ($1000-$1500) on this setup, but I want to do it as correct as possible. I plan on sticking to Behringer products because I like them and they are reasonably-priced.

Thanks for any suggestions you can provide regarding our band lineup and mixing goals.

Hey Mike...a Behringer 4 channel compresser (MultiCom Pro-XL MDX 4600 as example) can be used in the send/returns of each vocal channel...a bit of compression on each vocal mic with a little reverb can sound pretty sweet if done right

As far as "too loud" bass or keyboards- compression or limiting can help, for example the bass DI (Direct injection or "line out") or keyboard line out can "directly" feed (instead of the mixers send/return) a channel of compression or limiting in an additional MDX 4600, each output comming out of the 4600 can feed the mixers input for its respective instrument.

I'm not a huge fan of compressing the entire mix or "group" since it can cause extra hiss -since a compressor will raise the level of a signal, it stands to reason that it can also raise the usually inaudible hiss, when done to many input/outputs at once there is the possibility of additive noise...plus when you raise or lower a level your response is lessened due to the compressor fighting level changes you will manually make.

As far as EQ'ing -I prefer using a single channel of eq in the send/return of a given mixer channel, for example we mic our drummers kick drum then run it into one channel of a stereo 31 band graphic eq (from the send/return of our mixer), we happen to use the other channel of the eq for his overhead/ride cymbal mic...keep in mind that vocals really don't need a hell of a lot of eq'ing since most mixers have sweepable mids which make it easy to get a decent vocal tone without the need for external eq, drums however almost always need additional eq and perhaps some limiting, compression or both.

With regards to your budget I'd say the best eq unit you could get for your needs would be the new Carvin XD88, this unit has 8 individual inputs each with its own seperate 30 band EQ and multiple crossovers plus it has send/returns so you could insert a compressor/limiter or any other item you'd want in the signal chain. It also has limiting and 4 band parametric eq's on each of the eight output channels -between the 30 band graphic and 4 band parametric on each channel you could probably eq a wet fart to sound pleasent.
The unit is about $700 which is is pretty good considering you're getting 8 30 band eq's feeding 8 limiters and parametric eq's with tons of crossover possibilities plus the thing is digital so you can store and manipulate things however you'd like them.

If you add to that a couple of inexpensive Behringer 4 channel compressors (around $150 each I'd guess) you're talking $1000

Anyway take care and have a nice day-John.

If your going to use compression start with the mellow curve, if you smack it too hard you will get some weird swells to your sound that to my ears arent that musical.

Good Luck