Musician Gear & Tech Discussion

Scott, in all honesty, I use mainly Digitech pedals. I wouldn't mind a more expensive Distortion pedal. But my current situation doesn't allow it.

I can say this though. My pedal chain has 11-pedals, and I don't experience any change in tone at all. I was going to make a vid to show you guys, but my computer is a POS when it comes to vids. I have to convert video and audio separately, then upload to youtube. It takes forever for me to make a vid. Maybe later I might.

This is the effect chain I've been using for about a year now:



5- Digitech
2- Boss
1- VooDoo Lab
1- Tech 21 (sometimes a Biyang)
1- Crybaby
1- Seymour Duncan

No tone sucking whatsoever.


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Scott, in all honesty, I use mainly Digitech pedals. I wouldn't mind a more expensive Distortion pedal. But my current situation doesn't allow it.

I can say this though. My pedal chain has 11-pedals, and I don't experience any change in tone at all. I was going to make a vid to show you guys, but my computer is a POS when it comes to vids. I have to convert video and audio separately, then upload to youtube. It takes forever for me to make a vid. Maybe later I might.

This is the effect chain I've been using for about a year now:



5- Digitech
2- Boss
1- VooDoo Lab
1- Tech 21 (sometimes a Biyang)
1- Crybaby
1- Seymour Duncan

No tone sucking whatsoever.


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you are only fooling yourself if you think that many buffered bypass pedals (and a stock crybaby????????) and you don't have any tone loss.
You might not be able to hear it but I promise you it's there.

if you are going to do a youtube video do this:
first do your sound going thru the 11 pedal signal chain with all pedals on bypass and then compare that to going straight into your amp
do this with a clean signal on your amp...




johnny deth - those skull knobs cost $10 each! I'm guessing that's a booster or based on a dod 250 or an mxr dist + with such a low part count? how do you figure $8? I'm just trying to determine if you know some source I don't!
the cheapest you can find a 2pdt is $2? if you did the pcb yourself it's still .50 worth of perf, the pots are minimum $1.25 each x 4k, the jacks are min .85 if you use crappy ones... then a cpl resistors at .08 if you use crap, few caps at .10 if you use 'greenies'... a few transistors at .25... then wire + solder + a 9v jack... I can't imagine that the circuit itself was actually $8. still good for you on the diy... I love to see stuff like that.

here's a few I did:
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ok, I just recorded a test you can hear on my profile called tb test.
PLEASE EXCUSE MY MISTAKES AND RAMBLING TIME... THIS WAS OFF THE CUFF!

I wired up as follows... gtr -> monster cable -> big muff clone with tb loop...
the loop has only four non-tb pedals on it... a boss dd7, boss ce-5, boss cs-2, and specifically for shredd... a digitech crossroads.

when the loop is bypassed we are going straight in truly bypassed, when the loop is not bypassed we are going thru the buffered bypass on the four pedals... none of them are on mind you.

DO YOU HEAR A DIFFERENCE?

You might not be able to hear it but I promise you it's there.

Hahahaha!!!! I'm sorry but I have to laugh at that. Not trying to be a dick, but it's funny if you read it.

Thanks for proving my point though. That's the minuscule level that it matters.

If I can't hear it... Then why would I worry about spending Hundreds (some people thousands) of dollars more for that small of an issue?? You're only fooling yourself if you think it matters that much.

Am I missing something here?

Am I playing for dogs or people???

No wonder the dog would run out of the room when I would fire up. The dog whistle tone level was a bit lacking.

I do plan on recording the difference. Just not anytime soon. I am in a band, and we have some big shows coming up in the next couple of weeks. Then we're going in the studio to record our first full length. Maybe that would be a better time to record the non-difference.

I know you care about your hobby a lot. You've put a lot of time in it, you seem very knowledgeable on the subject. But this is where I think extreme pedal hobbyists take the issue a little too seriously for such a small thing. So small that "you might not be able to hear it, but I promise you it's there".

" 'You might not be able to hear it but I promise you it's there.'


Hahahaha!!!! I'm sorry but I have to laugh at that. Not trying to be a dick, but it's funny if you read it."

It's probably not as funny(to you) when you put the big emphasis on YOU.

Woof...Woof.



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I guess the moral of the story is, IF YOU CAN HEAR IT AND YOU DON'T LIKE IT, then it's a problem.

If not, everything is golden.

I have had some CHEAP stuff before and my ears tweak quickly, so when I had the chance to get true bypass stuff I tried it.

And it works ok to me, truth is I pick my effects for what noise they make, not for what they don't make. (you know I like the 60 cycle hum from hell so sometimes I don't notice the other nuances, other times it drives me nuts.. go figure)

If you listen to the recording (tb_test on my profile)I made you should be able to hear the difference - albeit an admittedly small one (as I've said from the begining).

Now if we extrapolate this to shredd's setup it would be 3 times worse (11 pedals vs 4 pedals)... and if we extrapolate to my setup it would it would be 12 times worse.

shred said:
"I think extreme pedal hobbyists take the issue a little too seriously"

go wire up 46 pedals and then tell me about how you don't need to take it seriously.

Eric johnson has the paint removed from underneath the bridge... he keeps the back plastic off the gtr, he says he can here the dif between a rayovac and a duracel battery...

Hu hu.. He said extrapolate.

How many people do you know use 46 pedals live?

Honestly dog, you are exaggerating quite a bit. You act like my tone is some kind of fuzzy muffled mess and you haven't even heard my rig.

Let me remind you that there are 6 instruments (soon to be 7) going on at one time during our sets. Do you honestly think that when I'm playing there are people in the audience going "you know.. there's something... Do you hear that? That guy.. His tone.. It's about .0001% different than if you plug it into just the amp...I think.. You know.. You know what?? He's got Buffered pedals in his chain!!! And it's EXTRAPOLATING THREE FOLD!!!"


Reality is, it's not that big a deal. My tone is fine. It's clean, warm, clear, doesn't sound restricted.. You have to admit that when a whole band is going off, the differences you hear in your recording which is very hard to decipher would take a super-bionic ear to hear in a live setting.

he says he can here the dif between a rayovac and a duracel battery...

OMG now that's fuct.

If you ever say you can tell the difference between the sound of one battery to another, you best have quantifiable results cause I would be not taking that for granted at all.

Sh*t, that suddenly makes me wonder.. That's a real earth shaker there if that crap is true..

Scott, most people on Fender websites (luthiers, pro techs, and pro musicians as well), although they love his music, laugh at EJ for believing these things. The piece of plastic over the trem springs will do absolutely nothing detrimental to your tone. In fact, by leaving it off, all it might do is rip out your bellybutton hair if you play with your shirt off.

People like David Gilmour, Eric Clapton, Jeff Beck, Buddy Guy, etc.. Have mentioned none of these things as being a problem.

These kinds of oddball quirks EJ swears he hears are eccentric, and are most likely his last laugh at the people who believe it and follow suit.

Eric sure took a lot of guff about that comment... I don't think eric could pass a taste test on this... but I believe there is some truth to it.
Batteries vary in their initial output quite a bit... a 9v battery will put out anywhere from 9 to 9.6v... and I believe this would make an audible difference... again, albeit a small one.
It is a widely accepted fact that the change in batteries over the years has effected how vintage pedals work now.
Ever here of SAG?



"Hu hu.. He said extrapolate."
I use terminology I'm comfortable with SHREDD. I find it remarkable that you aren't embarrassed to admit you feel it's a 'BIG WORD'. It's a fairly common expression.



"You act like my tone is some kind of fuzzy muffled mess"
no, no that's not accurate at all... I act like your tone could most likely be improved by true bypass - nothing more, nothing less.


"How many people do you know use 46 pedals live?"
once again, my point was... you said you think hobbyists 'take themselves too seriously'... but I'm not in favor of true bypass because "I've taken myself too seriously" - I'm in favor of it because it's absolutely necessary to accomplish what I wanted - 46 pedals.

Do I ONLY buy true bypass pedals? No. I have plenty of buffered bypass pedals on my rig - all broken into true bypass loops of 2 or 3 in order to minimize the tone loss that would normally incur running 11 of them simultaneously.

The original thread question asked about true bypass, and how it compares to buffered bypass, and many here have answered intelligently: that in fact there IS a difference and it's significant to some.

And then one person answered:
"My pedal chain has 11-pedals, and I DON'T EXPERIENCE ANY CHANGE IN TONE AT ALL."
which silently retreated to
"WELL THERE IS SOME TONE LOSS BUT IT'S INSIGNIFICANT"
and all this despite overwhelming widespread evidence accessible via a single google search.

Either way I enjoy our conversation... you are quite the character.

Extrapolate.. Hu Hu. I've got something you can extrapolate..

Naw, it's all in good conversation. I've had the same kinds of conversations about NOS tubes VS. Modern. Wanna talk about a huge difference? Now that's a big difference.

Incidentally, a few days ago I swapped out my .01 cap for a .022 in my wah to take off some of the edge, but I think it changed it a little too much for my taste. I've got a .015 on the way to see if I can find a middle ground between the two.

Extrapolate.. Hu Hu. I've got something you can extrapolate..

do jokes like that actually make people laugh around your trailer park?
(just kidding)

Naw, it's all in good conversation. I've had the same kinds of conversations about NOS tubes VS. Modern. Wanna talk about a huge difference? Now that's a big difference.

TBH... I've found that nos tubes don't ALWAYS sound better. I've got a set of american made united 12ax7s from the 60s and they sounded great in my halfler preamp but I tried them in my peavey classic and they absolutely sounded horrible. Oddly, I tried some mesas, some jjs, some eh 12ay7s, some eh 12ax7s, some rubys and the uniteds but I found the best was a sovtek 12ax7wa - which is a cheap ass tube.

Incidentally, a few days ago I swapped out my .01 cap for a .022 in my wah to take off some of the edge, but I think it changed it a little too much for my taste. I've got a .015 on the way to see if I can find a middle ground between the two.

congratulations on being able to swap out a cap.
you should compare the .015 greenie you used to a .015 tropical fish... then we can have another biotchmatch re cap brands/types.

Mike, to be as honest and sincere as I can, I think you should try delving into that area a little more. Seeing how you take your pedal tone so seriously, it's odd to me that you haven't dug into your amp tone very much.

United wasn't a tube manufacturer, it's just a label. If it says made in USA on it, it's most likely GE or Sylvania. I'd have to see the etched codes to tell for sure what they are.

But neglecting your amp tone is actually more detrimental to your sound than stringing a bunch of buffered pedals together by a long-shot. Ask, Sanshouheil.. I sold him a killer set of NOS preamp tubes and he'll tell you it instantly clarified his whole sound to a degree that shocked him.

And that wasn't even the cleanest concoction I can come up with. I sold him an RFT because he doesn't utilize his clean channel. RFTs break up early, and are the top choice for heavy metal players. It's considered to be the best you can use for distortion by many top tube aficionados in the world.

If you'd like some advice on the subject, I'm willing to help you. But I'm not willing to argue over whether you're better off "tone wise" with modern VS. NOS. It's not arguable. Even to this day modern tube manufacturers admit wholeheartedly that it's impossible for them to match the clarity of NOS preamp tubes. And that they'd go out of business if they tried.

Why you haven't been on top of this is beyond me.. You'll argue tone 'til you're blue in the face, but have so far put garbage in your amp?? You're chasing the wong wabbit if you ask me.


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