Musician Forum - Band Discussion Board - BandMix

Why is it that people who are in the begining stages of playing alway say " You dont have to write music by the book" What book are they talking about. There are general "rules" to writing good music, well music most westerners will pay attention to. For example... Transition.. You need to ave a good flow of verse-transition-chorus0-verse... blah blah.. a song has to have structure.. in some form or another otherwise the sound and motion of the music go's nowhere... In past bands this has been a consistant issue. If I say anything reguarding "theory" all i ever get is "by the book man" anyone else have similar problems with people? I hate to be a dick and say, " I wont play with you unless you know what your talking about" Cause everyone who play's is in one stage or another in learning... I dont know... I guess this was only a bitch session lol let me know what you think on the subject.

Music theory can be the tie that binds it all together. It can also bethe shackle of true musical expression.
Point in case. The ebb and flow of instrumentals can be so much more expressive than music built around lyrical content.
Also consider oriental music. The rules are not always the same.

sanshouheil wrote:Music theory can be the tie that binds it all together. It can also bethe shackle of true musical expression.
Point in case. The ebb and flow of instrumentals can be so much more expressive than music built around lyrical content.
Also consider oriental music. The rules are not always the same.

The rules are important to center a group. Theory puts everyone on as equal level. But once you learn the rules you are free to do whatever you want. That being said, know what others may not know. There are a lot of good musicians out there who don't know the difference between a CM7 and a child's lullaby. I played with a guitarist who want to " trade eights" except he had no idea what that really meant. He just knew that he wanted to trade solos back and forth. I played along. It is more important, and professional, for me to have been able to keep up with him. Don't lose great musicians just because they don't know the rules.

Black57 wrote:I played with a guitarist who want to " trade eights" except he had no idea what that really meant.

I don't know the names of most of the scales and modes I play, I just play 'em. Don't know the terminology on a lot of things either, but when you said "trade eights" I knew exactly what you meant, although I've never heard it put that way before. We used to do a version of Bob Seger's "Rock n Roll Never Forgets" and at the jam at the end, I worked out a deal with the other guitarist that we'd each do an 8 measure solo, then a 4 each, then a 2 each, then we just jammed measure for measure as long as the crowd was into it, and finally end with the intro. Man, that was so much fun. But now, in a 3-piece band, if and when we do that song, I don't stretch the lead out at the end 'cause it just ain't as much fun as having another guitarist to play off of.

ratsass wrote:

Black57 wrote:I played with a guitarist who want to " trade eights" except he had no idea what that really meant.

I don't know the names of most of the scales and modes I play, I just play 'em. Don't know the terminology on a lot of things either, but when you said "trade eights" I knew exactly what you meant, although I've never heard it put that way before. We used to do a version of Bob Seger's "Rock n Roll Never Forgets" and at the jam at the end, I worked out a deal with the other guitarist that we'd each do an 8 measure solo, then a 4 each, then a 2 each, then we just jammed measure for measure as long as the crowd was into it, and finally end with the intro. Man, that was so much fun. But now, in a 3-piece band, if and when we do that song, I don't stretch the lead out at the end 'cause it just ain't as much fun as having another guitarist to play off of.

It is fun and that is the meaning of it all. This guy would not let me finish my 8 bars so I had to be on my toes and stop playing in a sensible manner so that we were able to play off of each other.

el_diablo wrote: For example... Transition.. You need to ave a good flow of verse-transition-chorus0-verse... blah blah.. a song has to have structure.. in some form or another otherwise the sound and motion of the music go's nowhere...

Wrong. It's the vicious cycle of verse-chorus that is boring and stale and "goes nowhere".

You don't have to conform to the rules of 19th century pop music which says, "You've got to have flow, verse-chorus, write in 4/4 time and keep the song under 5 minutes etc." Because the truth is - NO. You don't have to do that. You CAN think outside the box. You can structure your songs differently and they will "flow" and they will "go somewhere".

Bands like Rush, Yes, Dream Theater and Enchant have been doing it for years, and they've arguably written some of the most interesting music in the past three decades.

Go listen to Dream Theater's "Learning To Live" (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5apPdZXNELc). It does not conform to "standards". It's not written "by the book". But man... is it ever awesome. That song has as structure all its own - and it goes somewhere. The way it builds and builds and then lays low with a really awesome interlude, and then has a false ending, comes back around and rebuilds... Brilliant song writing. Brilliant structure. It feels like a journey when you listen to it. And it never gets boring.

I agree with you that it doesnt have to be a verser chorus ect. What I was tryin to say was that playing to the ear is best. if I were to come up with a killer verse riff and then played it sontinuously through out the song it wouldnt realy go anywhere... you could change up the lyrics from verse to chorus but the music itself would just go into circles... for example.. rap. i personaly hate rap music. Not always the lyrics always, but the contunious pft pft bump, pft pft bump grinding over and over drives me nuts. IDK ive always like to have my music move you like a roller coaster rather than make you walk a flat path. *shrug* thats what makes music so great, the endless possiblilites. Thats why I love it so much

el_diablo wrote:DK ive always like to have my music move you like a roller coaster rather than make you walk a flat path.

I totally agree. I much prefer music that has the feel of a journey; like there is a real path from beginning to end a lot of interesting stuff happens in the middle.

I think the best song writers - at least the ones I've appreciated the most over the years - have been the ones who seem to have little care for convention. They just do their own thing; they let the music go where it will.

I don't know about this,If you look at the history of Blues music,it was formed by playing outside the box,playing through emotions instead of standards.If no took that leap,where would music be today?We'd probably all be listening to Classical music,got nothing against Classical music,but I couldn't listen to it ALL the time,I appreciate where the innovation of music has taken us.....somewhat,lol,Rock n Roll!

Have any of you rock n rollers ever sat in with a bluegrass band? Man, those guys have some of the strangest changes I've ever tried to keep up with.

I'll prolly get blasted for this but:

Rock music seems to me to be more an expression of emotions via instruments. vs an musical expression of emotion.

Ok I know that made no freakin sense. Sorry.