Musician Forum - Band Discussion Board - BandMix

Something that I really haven't done before, but I'm having a crack at it for educational purposes. (Or masochistic purposes.)
I'm having issues with keeping my lines from getting too busy. (cluttered)
I didn't think that it would be much different from solo guitar, but I guess for me it is.

Any one have any general tips or tricks that they would like share?

It all depends on what you're trying to do.

Cluttered lines aren't too bed if you're looking for that machine-gun attack of syllables, like in that song "turning Japanese" or some of the stuff that the Squeeze did. Avoid awkward phrasings that make it too difficult to stay in meter unless YOU're the one doing the singing, & can pull it off. It's very taxing on a singer when he/she has to learn to stuff all those words into 1/2 second of space, & keep the feel of the thing & the rhyme in the right spot.

Hardest part for guitarists/non-singers, from what I've seen, is to make it melodic enough. Often a vocal melody gets written just like it was a guitar lick, & ends up sounding a bit droney. That, too, can work for a song, though, paradoxically. Esp in blues or metal.

Try keeping the melody line within 2 octaves, at 1st. And make sure you give the singer time to breathe, esp after a big scream or long sustained note.

That's all I got in me headbone for you right now, zip...just do it & see how it goes...Then do it again & again...

Keep it simple, powerful, catchy, and well done. Play around with it alot because most people will notice the vocals over anything else.

Thanks guys.

Good info philbymon. I'm actually just working within one octave at the moment, so the two octave rule gives me plenty of options.
Would you just stick with diatonic scales? I think that pentatonic might make it sound foreign. (native american)

Great tip on 'time to breathe'. A simple thing that I wasn't thinking about at all.

Hunter: Yeah. Simple, powerful, and catchy for sure. It's kind of humbling because
it is a limited amount of notes and each one has to count big time.

Imo, Zip, pentatonic lines melody should be reserved for lead instruments, not used for voice. Again, blues & metal are the exceptions. But that's just personal choice. Explore both, and see what you prefer.

Get their vocal range first, and be sure and have plenty of rehearsals with them so you can edit.

Get to know the singer's style. Pete Townsend was a good singer, but he wrote for Daltrey's voice quite often too and it worked. Jimmy Page could write for Robert Plant's voice.

Only time playing together can do it though...

Also get familiar with the singer's range through your own voice, if you can sing too so you'll know where the harder to hit notes start by trying it yourself.

You just had to mention Turning Japanese...now I'm going to have to go look and see if I still have a copy floating around somewhere... Hmmm...maybe even Mexican Radio...

I'm on a Mexican radio, I'm on a Mexican woh ohh, radio...

Radio...radio...radio...radio... ...

I don't think vocal range is that important as long as you're willing to change keys to accomodate the singer (although I'll admit that sometimes this is harder to do, & frustrating for a musician...but remember that the singer's range determines the key).

Is the singer male or female? You may have to alter lyric content to make it work for that.

A good repetitive line is almost expected in modern music...something the audience can grab onto & relate to.

Since you're a musician, & not a singer, it may behoove you to do a "call & answer" style of song where the singer sings a phrase, & the guitar gives an "answer" with a little lick...just a thought...or play a harmony to the singer (keeping the volume below the singer is a must here).

Pete made a good point...do you know the singer, or are you looking to write & then find someone to sing it? If you know them, what kind of music do they like? What is thier preferred key, thier range, and are you trying to get them to step outside of thier usual box?

Personally, I look for strong lyric content in a song, & I get disappointed when it's just a repetitive hammer-bang of a slogan that makes up a whole song, but that seems to be very popular these days.

LOL...I never really thought about song-writing "rules of thumb" before, but after thinking about it, I see that a whole buncha stuff goes into it!

Thanks for making me think, Zip! My brain-pan's been turning to mush, lately.

I have an older recording of a song that 'he' has done. Just so happens that from that I can tell what his general vocal range is. (he covers a fair amount of ground in it)
I will rehearse with him and probably do a fair amount of editing, but this first crack at it is a surprise.
I shouldn't have to change keys.

In other words this is sort of a cross between knowing the singer, and me just looking to write & then finding someone to sing it.

Thanks for the input guys.

(And yeah Philby, I was/am kind of surprised that there is not 'songwriting/composing' category on this forum. maybe there should be?)

Go for it, Zip...I've been way too vocal on these forums, I think...ppl are prolly getting real tired of my typerations...LOL

In my songwritin' heyday , The music always came first!

This is how my "songwriting machine" of a band "Tentative Relationship" did it in the early 80's.

1) Somebody would come up with either a good Guitar , Bass or Keyboard(that would be me) hook.

2) We would jam our asses off with it with drums. (tape always running)

3) I would improvise (mumble , scat, or slur,) a bunch of gibberish. Sooner or later, a good melody line would usually materialise.

4) After listening to the "proto-song" for awhile, I would write lyrics. (since I was the one doing most of the lead singing, it was "custom tailored" to fit my voice!)

5) Next session, the whole band would refine the finished product.

We composed over 50 songs of many styles. (Alternative, Blues , R&B, Ska, Punkey Metal, and sometimes a bit of Reggae.)

Everyone in the band had a hand in the process! (worked for us)

Howlin'

I'm working with a mezzo-soprano right now, and found out you cannot just rely on the Alberti Orchestration Guide for classic vocal ranges. They (mezzos) like to all say they can go higher than their standard register. You have to work with them livetime to get the right feel for that singer.

Hey Pete! These guys I got together with a couple days ago whipped out "Turning Japanese" & I can't wait to play it...such a fun lil tune!

Irminsul wrote:I'm working with a mezzo-soprano right now, and found out you cannot just rely on the Alberti Orchestration Guide for classic vocal ranges. They (mezzos) like to all say they can go higher than their standard register. You have to work with them livetime to get the right feel for that singer.

I have to agree with you there. As a mezzo-soprano myself, I find that if the octave gets too high, I'm dropping it down. I'm really working on expanding my range, but it's a process for any vocalist as it is for a musician to learn on his instrument. So my advice would be if you are writing with a particualr vocalist in mind, keep it within their range or be willing to have variations between octaves...