General Music Chat

So...

This guy responded to my craigslist ad looking for bass players (forming band), and because of all the posers and flakes I've been getting through CL, I had re-listed the ad and listed very specific requirements-

*serious musicians only
*MUST absolutely have 5 current / consistent years of steady practice
*Must be able to play material from start to finish.

So In emails and phone conversations, this guy likes all the same music as I do.. etc.. looks good so far...

I emailed him a song list of about 40 songs I do regularly, with a good range from classic rock to current stuff. He responded that he didn't really know any of those songs, but that he knew a lot of Metallica stuff (I didn't list any of their stuff in my songlist for whatever reason)..

Anyways.. I tell him we will just hash through metallica then, I know just about everything from their first 5 albums and could play through most of the songs without a problem.

So I get to his place and plug in. He has a decent bass and amp, I'm thinking this looks pretty good. I say ok lets start with enter sandman..

Him: "Uh well I play it differently than most people"
Me: " well lets just play it and see"

I start the intro, he plays into it with poor timing and before the lyric part he's already playing the wrong notes.

Me: "well.. you do play it different, let's just move on to something else"
Him: "ok"
Me: "What do you know off of 'ride the lightning'?"
Him "Oh, I never really learned anything off that one"
Me: "hmm .. ok, how about Justice for all?"
Him: "Er.. Let me grab my (store bought) tab guide to metallica"
Me: "Well.. we don't have time to learn material right now, let's just move on... What do you know off of Master of Puppets?"
Him: "er... hmm.. I kind of know the slow part of the song 'master of puppets'
Me: "argh...I will just play it and you join in"

I do the intro, he's lost. I just stop playing.

Me: "Know anything off of 'Kill em All?"
Him: "uhhhhh"
Me: "the black album???"
Him: "I know nothing else matters"

I do the intro, wait for the bass line... damn.. he's lost again
I go into the vocal line, he tries to play, hits all the wrong notes.

Me: "Is there any song, from any band, that you know, hands down, start to finish??"
Him: "uhhhhhh I'm drawing a blank"
Me: "can you just play me a standard blues line, E A E A B ??????"

He looks confused. I go into the line, the most basic fundimental 1st week learner blues line I know. He tries to join in and fails miserably.

Me: "dude, I don't know how to say this any more politely - You need some serious lessons and practice."
Him: "Yeah... I haven't really picked up the bass in 6 months or so..."

WTF???? ARGH!

Hey Kramer,

Ive learned over the yrs to ask certain key questions over the PH or E mail to see if a person knows their "Instrument" not just tunes...First , I see if they know anything about "Music" and its terminologies..Talk about tunes that have time changes from 2/4 to 6/8, shuffled (dotted)or straight 8ths... Then # system..Ill say like , the bridge of "China Grove" has a 3m- 5 -6m7 walk up, Is that the way you play it?..You can do it in a round about way with out making the person feel like their being tested..I just treat it like its common knowledge....Sounds like this Cat would not have known any of this being that he couldnt even play a 12 bar blues progression...BUTTTT, I do know whats its like to be somewhat desperate to find some players, and you'll have a tendency to forgive alot of musical ignorance just to JAM Having a good basic theory understanding goes a long way...

John

Thanks for the reply, But I have to admit, I don't even understand alot of what you said about china grove lol. I took some basic theory in school, but mostly it was focused on intervals, circle of 5th's, etc..

I like to be super-flexible, as I know myself, no official lessons, very little gig experience, you name it. But I can learn a song start to finish, and polish it up nicely in a reasonable amount of time. I've always been self critical enough to understand my standing in the musical food chain and always aspire to better my playing, and my library of knowledge of songs, licks, rhythms, etc.

I just don't get guy like that who read the ad, and somehow think that they are qualified, when they don't self evaluate enough to realize that they don't even know ONE single song in it's entirety, cannot discern tone well enough to learn the right notes, and have the timing that is consistent of epileptic seizures.

I'm just frustrated, again. My search for bands and/or musicians has turned out nothing but people like this so far, with one exception of a band that was out of MY league.

I feel trapped in purgatory.

This is a TRUE STORY. I'm looking for a pro-level guitarist. Somebody answers my ad and says he's got over 20 years of stage experience. Well hell this guy must be good. I invite him over and he can't play ANYTHING. I ask him about his stage experience. He tells me he worked in a union which was responsible for getting the stage ready for major touring acts like Pink Floyd, Rolling Stones, etc. I guess in his mind his "stage" experience qualified him as a pro-level guitarist. Kramer, you've got to get more creative in your search for bass players. Call some of the music stores and ask them if they teach bass guitar. Call the teachers and tell them what you're looking for. They may have a star pupil or two who might qualify. Tell everybody you know you're looking for a bass player, tell even strangers you meet. Most everybody knows a musician or two. I found the best drummer I ever played with this way. Go and see some of the local bands. Between sets talk with their bass players (if you like their playing). Some of those players would perhaps take on a second project. Some really don't like what they are doing and would be happy to switch bands. Go to jam sessions and listen to the bass players. Talk to every guitarist yo know and ask if they could fill in on bass for you. Some guitarists also like to play bass. There's a lot of ways to find musicians, DON'T GIVE UP. Later...

I had a wierd experience in this vein myself the other day. 1 to 2 nights a month I go to a local guitar center at night for an hour or two and check out stuff. Im in the store playing and this guy is playing bass, and sounds good. Hes older, not as old as me, but not a young pup so I strike up a conversation with him about music and think he and I might have some mutual ground to work from. We exchange phone numbers and agrre to get together. He calls me and says to come by his house. I go to the door and this old lady answers and I ask if hes in. She says oh yeah my son is in his room. This guy is at least 40 and lives with his mom. I go in his room and he has a nice bass and amp in there and a bunch more equipment. We tune up and its like it is another person, like you said he cant play a basic blues progression in E. Im pretty straight up in person with people and Im like dude you were rocking in the store the other night. He says well I was high, you holdin anything. Im like Im holdin my guitar and amp and gettin out of here. It was like a total Jekyl and Hyde, Im still wonderin if this guy had a twin or somethin. Ive seen people that were very bad, or very good, or very good with an attitude but Ive never seen someone that just loses it like this. Im wondering if I imagined his playing in the store, or maybe he was one of those people who just clams up. He was playin stuff in the store like Rush YYZ and then couldnt play a 12 bar blues. Twilight Zone ................................

Yeah, similar to jw123, I was forming a band with a guitar player-excited after hearing him really tear it up. We jammed together for about two months, and every OTHER time, the dude could really wail. The in between times, he couldn't hit his own ass with both hands. It finally wore me down and I just stopped calling him. It's one thing to go in knowing there's a lot of work to do, quite another to think you've got something and end up walking out empty handed. I even had one guy (a close friend who had moved back home) play a CD for me and claim to play the lead parts. So I put a band together with him. Needless to say, it wasn't him playing, he couldn't play like that, and we are no longer friends.
I just don't understand why people can't accept their ability level and be honest about it.

Finding new musicians is always a challenge. Even if you find one that can play, there's all the ancillary stuff. Does he have a car? Does he have an amp and equip that's reliable? Will they practice? Are they a raving narcissistic alcoholic with self esteem issues that are only relaxed by being on stage.......?

I would not know about the 3rd/5th whatever questions. I never took a lesson in theory and can't read a note of music. I learned by ear and feel. After playing the drums for 15 years prior to bass I suppose I learned how to play in tempo and with the rythm.

Re: Using music theory questions to qualify musicians . . .
.
If you use music theory questions to 'qualify' other musicians, you could very well be disqualifying someone who can play 5 times better than you can . . .

I have to play with people to tell. When you find the right combination its like putting on an old pair of shoes. Some of the funest people Ive played with over the years dont know what a fifth is unless its in liquid form.

And then some of the most awesome players have got such an attitude that you cant make good music together.

I guess the search goes on, its all in the chase anyway.

jw123. you got it right.

Yeah, I've met a few losers. I knew one kid once who claimed to everybody that he could play anything he heard. I was looking for band members then, and I was like," Great, can I get your number so we can jam! " He had this circle of followers that I could never compare to him in his skill and that there was no point in even asking. He even said it himself- To my face! I explained to him that he hadn't even heard me play and he kept on insisting that he was much better than me. I hardly even knew this guy and he's already insulted and alienated me. I challenged him to a guitar off and even arranged to pick him up to do it.
And he turned it down.
I get the feeling that he was faking it. No truly professional musician would ever be so ignorant and closed minded. And it was no skin off his back when he turned down my challenge in front of his little "fan club".
Anyway, that's my rant. Ever since I saw this guy, I told myself I would never be like him, but at the same time I wouldn't put up with any half assed posers who THINK they are rockstars...

That sounds like a guy I ran into a year or so ago, on a MySpace composers users group. A real piece of work this one....had nothing but white hot smack to say about anyone else's work, declared one day he was going to write a sonata and post it, to show us all "how it's done". So he took off for awhile, came back and posted it. It was leftbrained, overintellectualized, soulless horseshit from beginning to end. I was chomping at the bit to tear him a new one over it but someone else beat me to the punch and did a lengthy disassemblence of the entire "piece".

I haven't heard from the guy in a long time. Small wonder; he got his bluff called.

Yeah, sometimes it seems that there's ten poop losers for every serious musician.

Yeah, I've met a few losers. I knew one kid once who claimed to everybody that he could play anything he heard. I was looking for band members then, and I was like," Great, can I get your number so we can jam! " He had this circle of followers that I could never compare to him in his skill and that there was no point in even asking. He even said it himself- To my face! I explained to him that he hadn't even heard me play and he kept on insisting that he was much better than me. I hardly even knew this guy and he's already insulted and alienated me. I challenged him to a guitar off and even arranged to pick him up to do it.
And he turned it down.
I get the feeling that he was faking it. No truly professional musician would ever be so ignorant and closed minded. And it was no skin off his back when he turned down my challenge in front of his little "fan club".
Anyway, that's my rant. Ever since I saw this guy, I told myself I would never be like him, but at the same time I wouldn't put up with any half assed posers who THINK they are rockstars...

Hunter, It seems to me that most of the really good players let their music do the talkin. I can relate as I at one point or another in my musical life I have been on both sides of this equation. When I was just starting I thought I was it and had a few friends who reinforced the idea, until I wound up at a jam session that included a guy named Shawn Lane. I have been humble ever since. Maybe you humbled this guy.

J.W.'
"Let their music do the talkin'"
Y'all be speakin' the gospel truth there motorcycle man!
Howlin'