Musician Forum - Band Discussion Board - BandMix

Ok, weird title i know. I'm going to state an observation then ask your opinions after a brief bio of sorts.
First off, my sole instrument is Electric Bass, been playing since i was 12 and im now 50. I'm not trained, had very few lessons just recently, know some theory, been in teen bands etc. and currently play P&W.
I play and learn by ear, though in P&W lead sheets, chord charts are the norm. I first learned and played Bluegrass then moved to C&W yes back in those days it was called Country and Western, then i played rock when i was about 14-15 hitting the teen dance, party, school function stuff. Around 18 or so i turned to R&B and Funk, but in my area a blonde blue eyed funk bass player wasn't too well sought after; so i hung it up around 26-27 yo and didn't touch it again for about 17-18 years. Fast forward to now, i love to still play Funk and R&B but also love some Progressive Jazz and Fusion mixed with the Smooth Jazz sound. My style reflects all this Funk and jazz also. I do not consider myself a "Bass Player" i do believe i've earned the title of "Bassist".
Anyway, heres my observation (inspired by the 'do you get paid thread').
I've played with some above average musicians in my days, but what gets me and i'm thoroughly baffled and perplexed by it is; the trained musicians...sight readers, degreed, highly regarded types, that can't play a single note without the sheet music written out. I've encountered this "phenomena" often here lately and it makes me feel sorry for these people. How can you be so trained and so good on your instrument yet can't improvise? Granted i can't sit down play by reading, but i can improv with what i hear at the time i hear it. (mostly) These people i've seen just completely stop and say "i can't' because the music isn't written any farther.
What's your take on this?

HA, I know exactly what you are saying. We call them "paper trained" musicians, and without some ear training or improv abilities they are truly hobbled in their pursuits.

When I played with Stonecircle, we had a talented violinist who was tragically stuck to written music. Couldn't improv a note. About a month after joining them, we were in rehearsal and I said to her after a song "You know, you play that piece so well. I bet any amount of money that, if I took away your music, you could play it again just as well." She said there wasnt any way she could play without the music. I begged her to at least humor me. She shrugged and put her bow to the strings again. After a few measures of some tepid playing, it suddenly kicked in. The light came on in her eyes and she just made that song soar. She was awesome. After it ended she gasped "I didnt know I could ever DO that!" I told her that I'd wager she always could do that, but wouldnt let herself because of some stuffy past training. She went on to become an exceptional player and a really good improviser.

Of course, there is the other side of that dilemma, with musicians who have no IDEA how to read a lead sheet. A good place to be is in the middle. Be able to read music, but do not rely on it like a crutch for every performance thereafter. Music is far more than just a bunch of black dots collected on a page of paper.

"Paper Trained" i like that.
Yeah, my big jaw dropper was with a Violinist also, going for her Masters in Music; she completely stopped and flat out said she can't go on, she don't have the music. I was floored to say the least, flawless intonation, bowing, etc...had the whole package, or so i thought.
A shame really.

Hey Franny,

I had to look at your title 2-3 times to see if ya spelled musician differently the 2nd time ....Yeah , Im with ya in wonderment on this this one...There are ALOT of variables at play here....I , like you ,have been blessed to belong to both worlds when it comes to reading and playin from raw gut emotion...As a bass player in HS, we played ALOT of Chicago which (AT FIRST) required me to read and internalize my basslines.....I got tired of playin "Beginnings" in Bb so I put the record on and played learned it in A and heard other things happenin that were not in my music...At that point , I really started understand how the bassline in this tune ochrestrated with the maj7th and min 7th chords..Started hearing 3rds and 5ths against the root...Soon ,I started approaching the Dave Brubek, Steely Dan etc sheet music the same way...The band director caught on and scolded me...BUT, I didnt change...As a bass player , I use just enough theory to keep me in line, but Im very much an EMO player on that instrument...Yeah , I did some recording for numerous demo sessions in Nashville in the mid 80s' and alot of those Cats treated it like a "JOB"...Total # system with sheduled parts...To codas, DS al fine'and the whole 9 yrds... ...I was a session drummer then and wonder why they had chart this easy stuff so heavily....Now , I did some charting to arrange a tune Id never heard before but had to play perfectly in the next 1/2 hr....But still ,I played what I felt, and most of the time , the producer was happy...I think it all has to do with emotion...Im sure youve been playin long enough and through the yrs as music has changed so has your emotion toward it...I play material of today I dont much care for that I pretty much apply all theory with not much emotion so there not much inprov going on...Those Cats in that studio are the same today as they were in 84 Im sure...The Charts havent changed...I think your either born with it or not...I cant describe it to people either...The theory certainly helps the sub-contious emotional improv process but too much I think will hinder it....PLUS, I think alotta those studio Cats dont not "listen" to alot of genres of material...Ive noticed that most are in a narrow window of what they like and will play...Yeah , ya cant teach some one how to taste.... ....Yeah , the mood for playin groove music (funk- progessive rock) changes drastically when I switch to more melodic rock ...BUT, I cant really explain why???...I personally think that having to SEE the notes short circuits the ear which in turn hinders the emotion which hinders the improv capabilties...
I cant wait to hear more takes on this

John in WV.

Cool John, thanks for the insight.
I sometimes feel intimidated or like "im missing out" on music by not being a reader or heavy theorist. But like you i try to keep my mind open and my music expanding, i couldn't envision a music life of playing "Freebird" every Friday and Saturday night.
I also couldn't imagine treating music like a "job" either; it seems it would soon lose the "life or passion" that it should have. Plus as the lyrics say "where they hung the jerk, that invented work...in the Big Rock Candy Mountains"


as an aside:
My wife's family is from Bluefield WV. Man i love it down there, one day i'll get back down.

I've had to learn a certain amount of theory in order to compose for some other instruments besides my chosen ones. But to be honest, theory gives me a headache. It often gets in the way of making music.

In a former band, my bass player had studied at a major school of music (not Julliard or Berklee, but along those lines) and I told him that I had learned alot of music theory over the years, but regretted that I had not spent the time to learn to sight read and play together.

He stunned me by saying "I'm glad you didn't!"

He seemed convinced that I would never have written the music I did if I had been through a music conservatory. He told me that using my ear and following my own creativity is what made me such a good songwriter, and said that "they" would have "ruined" that in short order.

When you think of composers like Mozart, it seems that it shouldn't necessarily be true, but then, I guess his contemporaries certainly felt that he "broke" the rules quite often. I suppose it is not the ability to sight-read well that is the problem, but learning the craft from an "institution" that is the real issue?

Good point Craig, i've often thought that being trained to a high(er) level would eventually confine someone to a box so to speak.

I was watching a Bio on Yo Yo Ma the other night, that guy was a child prodigy the whole nine yards, well it took some producer or some such to say "you can improvise!!!" like it was some revelation or eureka moment about him playing with modern musicians and composers.
It literally made me do a double take...what?!?!

Back in my college days, I studied Recording Engineering. I played in bar bands at the time and decided I would take a jazz guitar class. I thought being a jazz class it would be improve, NOT! It was all reading music. There were 12 of us in the class and I noticed that the teacher would start on one end and work his way down the line. So I would sit on the far end. I could read a little at the time, but I played by feel or hearing. The teacher would start on the end of the line and by the time he got to me I could ussually pull off the parts well enough that he thought I could read. This went on the whole semester until our exams. He started on my end of the line, of course I stumbled thru and bombed it. He asked for me to stay after the class. He says "So you play be ear?" I said "Yes Sir, I dont read too well." He said "In all my years no one has fooled me like you did." I told him I was actually majoring in recording with a minor in business. He said, "I'll give you a B if you stay out of the music program."
I said "Yes Sir."

Oddly this teacher used to come to some of my gigs. He would sit in with us and he was horrible at basic 3 chord rock.

Too make a long story short I never learned to read music but I have continued to play and enjoy it. As said above I think it would have ruined it for me to learn to much theory.

Music theory is great if you are a classical musician. If you are a keys player, you can run but you won't be able to hide.

Now I love true musicians, as I know what I want. If I am jamming with someone and they don't know that it is going diminished (dim), you can say so and a theory trained musician knows what to do. Just like you can say to a guy that knows theory, it's a 1-4-5 or 1-5-1. AS long as you know the root note, the theory players are good.

Improvisational play is crucial though. WE all panic at one time or another. If you say you never choked or played in fear, then I don't think you played enough. Being a good improvisational player means you never have to say you are sorry. And should you choke on it, you know what to do.

In retrospect, I always prefer an improv player over someone who doesn't like improv. I have played out a few times and either lost focus or been distracted and had to make use of pure improv. AND LEMME TELL YA, when you improv and it sounds good, it generally isn't good, it's great. I have had some of the best compliments after choking on it and coming up with unseen/unfortold aid. Just remember when they ask, you always say it was intentional and say your prayers after it's over for the night. lol

Ha; “paper-trained.” Yeah, I appreciate that phrase. I’ve worked with people who have the sheepskins, . . . and they still don’t ‘get it.’
They may have all the knowledge they need to play . . .
. . . but not everything else they need . . . .
.
I never took a lesson (and I am continually thanking God that I did not), but I still learned quite a bit.
And I am still learning . . .
If I studied under someone, I would learn all their pre-conceptions about what is 'correct.'
I would be told not to do what other people have not done . . . .
I realize that learning the theory could be a great help to many people, when it comes to composing.
But, also - I might have learned to write (& sound) just like everyone else . . .
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Not for me. I play by ear. I’m not ashamed of my ‘lack’ of education.
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I FEEL the music - and no one can teach someone else what they are ‘supposed’ to feel.
I am continually hearing new music, new chords and new chord combinations, unusual bass patterns & what-not, in my head. That’s just me . . .
I love it.
I practice & improve every week. I listen to recordings of my self to be sure I’m improving. I compose a new song (often by accident) every week or three. I don't have any limiting rules, I go by what sounds and feels right.
And - when strangers began turning into my fans, I knew it was the right track . . . for me . . .
I, personally do not need any help from someone wanting to ‘teach’ me.
I’m sure they are millions of people who CAN teach me.
But: they’d be teaching me what THEY want to teach me . . .
I realize my weaknesses and what I NEED to know to be able to re-create the music I already hear inside of my head.
Oh, yeah, I love music . . . I even dream in songs, instead of pictures . . .
But, like anyone, I have a lot of weaknesses. Often I'm looking for a chord which I've never heard. But: I always find it, or a better-sounding one for that particular song. I never give up; I love music.
The more I learn, the more I realize I have to learn, and want to learn . . .
And, I DO learn something new, every one or 2 practice sessions. I practice 7 days a week.
Other times I don’t learn anything new: I concentrate instead on improving what I already play.
But I don’t waste practice-time with stuff I can already play well; I work on the stuff that’s hard for me.
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That’s how to improve: practice the HARD stuff, not the easy stuff.
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However, I may put a lot of my newer stuff on the ‘back-burner,’ until I’ve developed the ABILITY to play it . . .
Yep: I can’t play some of my own music.
But, not because of lack of theory. Because of lack of PRACTICE.
I don’t care what you know, there is no substitute for practice.
I practice 7 days a week. Do you?
To me, “good enough” is NOT good enough.
My self-discipline makes me a real Son-of a Bitch instructor. Geez . . .I'm NEVER satisfied! I know I can (and will) do better.
And I only practice stuff I can’t play well . . . yet. Just give me 2 minutes, or maybe 2 months. If it’s REALLY hard - give me a year, or 2: I’ll do it.
The word “can't” isn't in my vocabulary, unless it's followed by the word “YET."
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And, by not studying under someone, the word “shouldn't” is meaningless to me. The only way I apply the word “shouldn’t” to music is thus: you shouldn’t play crappy.

Practice until it sounds good.
So I practice until it hurts, and then I practice for another hour or so after that. There really is no substitute for practice . . .
Instructors and rules can just put one in a box.
I realize many people started with theory, and went on to be great artists. But it’s not for everyone.
I don’t want any ‘instructor’ to tell me,“Don’t break the envelope; I never leaned that, so it’s not valid.”
Yeah, uh-huh. Like he knows everything?
Well, maybe in theory, but not in actual practice. . . . get my drift, here?
SOMEONE had to learn/create each new style of music, at one time. Maybe, just maybe, I am one of those ‘someones’. Or - maybe not: but I won’t allow any ‘instructor’ to hold me back . . .
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There needs to one basic rule / guideline in music: It has to sound good.
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Hey, I could study & learn theory as fast as anyone; I have most of the materials, already.
But - I'm at a really productive stage, now, and I will not risk losing it, in order to study theory.
Our brains have 2 halves, basically: logical, and emotional.
Theory is logical.
My music is emotional.
If I use the logical half too much, my music will greatly suffer.
. . . too much “paralysis by analysis”
The only theory I study now is just the NAMES of the chords which I am continually discovering.
It’s important to be able to call the chords by their proper names. I can name most of the chords I play, now, or figure out the names of most of them. I play over 40 varieties of (or different fingerings of) ‘A,’ for example (eg, A, AM, Asus 4, 5, 6, 7, 9, etc.)
It’s amazing what is just waiting to be discovered . . . and then learned.
I record things I am in the process of learning. It’s amazing what you’ll forget if you don’t record it.
Some of my songs are complex, and if I can’t find a chord right away by the sound, then knowing the name of it can save me quite a bit of time . . .
Theory?
Practice?
There is no one rule for me, other than I have to really like HEARING what I play.
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Now, one last thing, and then I’ll sit down and shut up.
I actually DO have a world of respect for those with music degrees.
Maybe it’s not for me, but they invested a lot of time, money, studying and effort to learn what they learned. And - they HAVE learned.
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Everyone is different.
Just do whatever works best for you.

The pity of it all is that reading music is NOT difficult. I would wager that everyone on BandMix could learn to do it, in a matter of days. Now good sightreading is a skill that has to be developed, true....but basic reading is a very obtainable skill to add to your set. And if you are about making money with music, I'd say crucial.

I am a classically trained guitarist. I can read, score, and know theory (not as well as I should). IMO these tools are crucial, but that is what they are, tools. It is the craftsmans creativity that makes them into something.

From what I draw form this thread is that the paper trained musicians simply lack creativity. This may be because of the intense study and being paper trained, or they simply aren't creative. Not everyone is. So they can regurgitate notes on paper but can't make anything up on their own.

When I played in a band in Chicago for several years I improvised my solos every night. I never did the same solo two nights in a row. If anyone listens to my stuff it is all improvised. What you hear is how it came out at the moment. One take per track, even the stuff I am doing with the drummer. He is improvising too.

The way I see it, a well rounded musician draws on both. Study and ear/improvise, and one without the other is only half of the musicians true potential.

More precisely, wegman, paper trained musicians aren't necessarily uncreative - they have just been psychologically formatted to use sheet music as a false crutch for performance. By the 5,000th time you've played something, believe me, you don't even read the music in front of you anymore. It's already in your mind, your heart and maybe your soul. But there has been a psychological chain attached to that paper with the black dots on it, and it tells the brain that playing cannot happen unless it's there.

As they do in The Wizard of Oz - pull the curtain on that farcical old charlatan running the scary floating head projector...and toss that sheet music.