General Music Chat

Auditions are much better than using labels describing one's instrument experience as a method of determining who makes the cut in a band. That said, I'd like to know what the definitions for Expert, Advanced, Moderate, Intermediate, and Beginner are. It might be good if Bandmix provided that definition.

Any thoughts on this?

What is your definition of Expert, Advanced, Moderate, Intermediate & Beginner in the context of amateur (and maybe professional) musicians typically playing rock music?

Talk to 10 different musicians and get 10 different definitions. Here are mine with examples:

Expert: Rare and extraordinary skills and talent. Tommy Emmanuel, Steve Vai, Jimi, Robben Ford, Chet Atkins.

Advanced: Very high professional skill level. Clapton, Slash, Iommi, Dimebag, Andy Timmons.

Moderate: Lots of pro guitarists who gig regularly and have a good sense of tempo, meter, and chord & scale vocabulary.

Intermediate: Solid guitarists with simple skills and vocabulary: Kurt Cobain, Jason White, Jack White, Steve Jones.

Beginner: Still working on the fundamentals and not yet gig ready. Limited knowledge of chords & scales, limited right hand skills, limited control of tempo and meter.

One player's definitions, 10 others will surely disagree. Many players here at Bandmix have demonstrated Moderate or Advanced skills in the music they post. Others, not so much.

Advanced: Very high professional skill level. Clapton, Slash, Iommi, Dimebag, Andy Timmons..

wow, that's cool. I've worked with 2 of those people you rank so highly.

Others, not so much.

I bet that's me.

My take on this is somewhat relative...

Expert: Someone who won't work w/ folks like me, regardless of how much $$ we promise (they usually know we're lying about this; it's a skill they teach in the courses required to obtain an "Expert" card). Oddly enough, experts seldom work w/ other experts, and instead choose advanced, or sometimes moderate players for their supporting cast.

Advanced: Someone who typically won't work w/ folks like me, but depending on the circumstances, we might get lucky. But even then, we usually need to play what they want, and have little to no input into the musical direction. More often than not, they're working w/ experts, looking to become experts themselves.

Moderate: Someone who generally works w/ folks like me, if everything lines up well. Given the similar skill levels, it comes down to agreement on musical direction--mostly--and the host of other things that go into maintaining a harmonious collective. Some aspire to reach advanced level, but most are happy to create good sound. Moderates often seek to work w/ at least one advanced player; sometimes it works out, but more often, they wind up w/ other moderates.

Intermediate: Someone who will work w/ most folks (sometimes even beginners), and who have little concern for how they might be labeled. They'll play just about anything, and will step outside their comfort zone in an effort to both create good sound and establish themselves. Those who stick w/ it will become moderates and fall in w/ other moderates. Generally easy to get along with, but skill set limitations can sometimes be a problem.

Beginner: Folks who will do anything to establish themselves and build their skills--which, alas, some see as mutually exclusive. Some lack raw talent, but those who have it sometimes fall in w/ intermediates, and w/ practice, can hold their own. The rest are relegated to solitary practice, in an effort to develop the basic skills needed to be musically competent. Those who can't (or who lose patience) wind up selling their stuff on CL at a loss. To intermediates and moderates, mostly.

YMMV.

Thanks for going out of your way.
Not going to directly answer your question...
But you posted some Great music.

Auditions are much better than using labels describing one's instrument experience as a method of determining who makes the cut in a band. That said, I'd like to know what the definitions for Expert, Advanced, Moderate, Intermediate, and Beginner are. It might be good if Bandmix provided that definition.

Any thoughts on this?

What is your definition of Expert, Advanced, Moderate, Intermediate & Beginner in the context of amateur (and maybe professional) musicians typically playing rock music?

It's not as cut-and-clean as all that, it's a continuous scale. At what point does one move from 'intermediate' to 'moderate' (by name)?
YOu said in your profile:

I consider the majority of musicians on Bandmix to be in the amateur musician domain and not playing with an orchestra

and then quoted some person who equated sight reading ability with the various levels. Sight reading, IMO, is a totally different thing from playing ability. There are people who can look at sheet music and play it exactly as written instantly - and yet put no feeling or anything of themselves into it - at what level do you consider these people?

Hmm, maybe I need to revise my standing. I have a somewhat different standard considering Steve Vai is not likely to be using Bandmix. It is somewhat relative.

Beginner: I'm learning to play but I can't be depended upon to learn and use new material in a band.
Intermediate: I have learned to play some songs by rote, but I'm not really proficient with new material without guidance.
Moderate: I'm pretty good in my genre for stuff I already know but I haven't had enough practice on either my instrument or the style I'm playing to stand out from other musicians.
Advanced: I'm very proficient in my style and I understand fundamentals well enough to take on other genres or get up to speed in the short term for a paid gig in my style.
Expert: I'm a session musician. Provide me with sheet music and it is on.

I like this definition (from The Gear Page). Adding these definitions makes the most sense to me.

Expert - A list session player
Advanced - touring sideman on the national level
Moderate - working pro
Intermediate - capable gigging player
Beginner - student progressing towards the next step (intermediate)

Perhaps I am just a beginner, then, until my current band starts gigging. I certainly don't want to overrate myself. Anecdotally speaking, many of the people from Bandmix that I have auditioned have, seemingly, horribly overrated themselves. If I'm just a beginner or intermediate, do we need a new category for those people that can't handle what I'm asking them to do? What would you even call it?

Sight reading, IMO, is a totally different thing from playing ability. There are people who can look at sheet music and play it exactly as written instantly - and yet put no feeling or anything of themselves into it - at what level do you consider these people?

Very true. Sight reading is a lost art, but isn't indicative of playing ability. At the same time, the ability to read music saves a lot of time; given a chart, score or lead sheet, those at the upper levels of the heirarchy can readily fall in w/ total strangers and play...whatever. But whether it works is a whole 'nother matter. If you can't read music at all, it significantly limits your viability w/ other musicians.

I used to sight read--not so much anymore--but still ask for something written before I sit in w/ anyone, and always do likewise. I'm just a clubber--a moderate (by my def.) who will likely never rise above that level--and I don't have the musical recall of someone like, say, Bob Dylan. See music, play music. Most of the folks I've worked w/ (also mostly moderates) are the same way. I always put my own spin on whatever I'm given, but I need something to show me where it's going (key, time sig., etc.). When someone gives me some recordings and says 'do that,' I gotta burn time picking it out; my ear isn't as good as, say, an expert or advanced player. If I can see it, in the time it takes me to have a smoke, I can play it.

Anecdotally speaking, many of the people from Bandmix that I have auditioned have, seemingly, horribly overrated themselves.

True again. There seems to be something akin to 'grade inflation' going on here. Clips and vids can help; if you don't have either, I'm skeptical and less inclined to drag my rig somewheres to find out just what you can do. Likewise if you can't read music. Setting the proper expectation is always a good thing.

If I'm just a beginner or intermediate, do we need a new category for those people that can't handle what I'm asking them to do? What would you even call it?

"Poser."

If you can't read music at all, it significantly limits your viability w/ other musicians.

Only certain genres (and possibly studio work) these days. In the last 8 years (since I've become more active musically) only once have I had anyone present me with sheet music (and it was only a lead line that he was singing with chords written in above) - and I would have been fine with that except it was printed in such small type I couldn't read it (no reading glasses with me!)

Advanced - touring sideman on the national level

I've met plenty of musicians who I would classify as 'advanced' who don't tour, they play locally only, or even part-time. And I've heard some touring sidemen who I didn't consider 'advanced' at all, too!

I have been mulling it over. I provide the string stuff as just named notes or chords. I have some tab to a certain extent. As I am auditioning for a bassist, I considered providing music staff for this as per this thread but I feel like I would be wasting my time because:

1. The people I've had in don't seem to know WTH to do with a 5 string. Music scale doesn't change when you add a string. If you can't figure this out, I can't imagine music staff will help.

2. I hope that a prospective bassist can play better than I can, so they would be composing for the originals anyway.

I think the hard part is maintaining when you've reached a level

I'm not as good as I use to be

I think the hard part is maintaining when you've reached a level

I'm not as good as I use to be

as we all know, everybody is different. I'm 62 and still improving on all my instruments.

many, if not most live performances of the different bands I play with are recorded, so it's something that I can monitor fairly objectively. I know that as i get older and likely more secure/confident w less to "prove", I find myself more and more comfortable with "space" and letting things breathe. Buying into the concept of "telling a story", I've never been all that taken or impressed w chopsmeisters and speed demons.