This is a MUSIC forum. Irrelevant or disrespectful posts/topics will be removed by Admin. Please report any forum spam or inappropriate posts HERE.

All users can post to this forum on general music topics.

Moderators: bandmixmod1, jimmy990, spikedace

#288373 by Planetguy
Wed Jun 27, 2018 7:48 pm
MikeTalbot wrote:
What happened to those great posts where we discussed scales and modes? It's not exactly like those topics can be said to be concluded simply because one of us says, "Yeah, cool..."

So can someone explain why there are three types of minor scales (natural, harmonic and melodic) and why we'd select one over the other? How does that affect the modes played against minors? (and poor dummy Mike - I'm
trying to understand from the perspective of guitar, bass and piano)

Talbot


Well, since your question was only met w more name calling and $hit slinging, let me take a stab at answering as best as I can.

I think it best to start with the naturally occurring different minor chords/scales/modes that you find diatonically appearing within the "parent" or "home" key that you find yourself playing in.

Let's work with the key of C Maj and a two octave C Maj scale to explore the different modes/scales/chords that lie within that set of notes.

we're gonna look at one octave "groups" . I'm gonna put a bracket around the first 8 notes like this:

[ C D E F G A B C ] D E F G A B C - within the bracket is a simple C Maj scale aka C Ionian mode

now we're gonna do the same for each of the seven letter names (notes) and each time we'll start on the next note than the previous scale /mode....

C [ D E F G A B C D ] E F G A B C within this bracket is a Dm scale, but not just any Dm scale...it's Dm dorian, the second mode of C MAJ

next we move to next starting point "E" :

C D [ E F G A B C D E] F G A B C this is an Em scale built on the third degree (note) of a C Maj scale aka Em Phygian (of interest here is the half step that immediately appears between the E and F notes.. a big characteristic of this mode)

now, you're on your own for the others! but if you do this same bit thru ALL the different eight note scale possibilities, you've covered all seven modes.

and without introducing ANY new notes you will have played SEVEN different scales that are really all the SAME scale but they just start and end in different places!

those seven scales will be

CMaj -ionian
Dm-dorian
Em-phrygian
FMaj-lydian
G7-mixolydian
Am-aeolian
Bmb5-locrian

notice that within that C maj (and EVERY major key) you have four minor scales and their respective chord voicings.....and they ALL are different!!!! yeah, they ALL have a minor third but they all have little subtle differences that are easy enough to figure out if you spend some time playing them and paying attention to the intervals as they unfold.

so, how do know which minor to use? well, you look at the key signature.....and that will tell you which to go with. just stick with the parent scale of the key you're playing in and you're golden.

hopefully that makes some sense.
#288376 by Planetguy
Wed Jun 27, 2018 8:27 pm
here's a good exercise, take a minor chord.....let's say Am.

but cast it in different roles...like, OK I'm playing an Am as it would look in the key of C.....so what does that scale look like?

how about an Am in the key of G? ...and the keys F, Bb, etc.

to make that work, you're gonna have to make little adjustments as you apply it to different keys

(hint: let the parent scale of the key you're playing in dictate the note choices)
#288381 by Mordgeld
Wed Jun 27, 2018 8:41 pm
Thank you for this post. I have been engaging a teacher for a while to refresh me on this stuff. I feel like sometimes we aren't connecting on how he is teaching and how I understand it. So, let me bring this to you...

Each of these modes has a corresponding scale shape and root placement. So let's say you are in C Ionian, if you move the pattern so the root (C) is now on what was the second for the Ionian, it becomes Dorian. If the root is moved to the third of that same pattern, it becomes Phrygian and so on following the MmmMMmd interval for whether it is Maj or min.

Am I understanding this correctly?
#288383 by MikeTalbot
Wed Jun 27, 2018 8:43 pm
Great stuff Mark. I've long been fascinated by the relationship of modes to scales and that minor scale thing. I get it, kinda, but it has always seemed to me that I'm missing some fundamental rule that would make it obvious.

I'll run through all this stuff and thanks very much.

Talbot
#288386 by MikeTalbot
Wed Jun 27, 2018 8:50 pm
BTW Mark

I don't know if I mentioned this before but my brother and I were in a band in FL where the booking agent was related to the rather subpar drummer and male singer. But her husband was a piece of work.

He ignored the cousins, considering them lame, but took me and Danny under his wing. The first night we jammed with him he took the bass out of my hands and handed it to my brother. He sat me down at his piano and picked up a clarinet.

His name was Jack Lindsey and he said simply, "Now let's find out if you boys are actually musicians or just instrumentalists." We went on to learn much from him so I'm never shy about asking the jazz cats for musical advice.

Talbot
#288395 by Planetguy
Wed Jun 27, 2018 9:14 pm
Mordgeld wrote:Each of these modes has a corresponding scale shape and root placement. So let's say you are in C Ionian, if you move the pattern so the root (C) is now on what was the second for the Ionian, it becomes Dorian. If the root is moved to the third of that same pattern, it becomes Phrygian and so on following the MmmMMmd interval for whether it is Maj or min.

Am I understanding this correctly?


boy this gets tricky and unwieldy trying to communicate like this! whereas if we were sitting down instruments in hand...

ok....damn semantics are raising their ugly heads so let me confirm we're on the same page here. when you say " So let's say you are in C Ionian, if you move the pattern so the root (C) is now on what was the second for the Ionian....

see.... i'm not sure how you mean "pattern" because as i see it the "pattern" changes (my def being "pattern" = intervals).

if however you just mean.... moving up the next EIGHT NOTE group (and THAT's what you are referring to as a "pattern") then you gottit! yes. move up one scale degree from ionian....that's dorian. move up another...that's phrygian, etc. rinse and repeat.

now as far as[i]"maintaining that MmmMMmd"[i] i take you to be referring to the chord sequence and not intervals...as in Maj chord followed by mi chord followed by mi chord, etc ...yes?

if so that "d" you have at the end i assume you refer to a diminished chord, yes? if so, that's actually a half diminished chord ...aka minor flat five.
#288397 by Planetguy
Wed Jun 27, 2018 9:23 pm
You're most welcome Mike. Please feel free to follow up w any questions after you've had time to mess around w all that.

Great story.

It put me in mind of what Lennon said after someone asked him about the Beatles playing different instruments. He said something to the effect of "well, it's all music ya know? put a bloody trombone in me hands and i'll figure out something to do w it".

i have a slight variation on that when i'm playing a multi instrument gig and someone asks or comments on that. it goes along these lines...

it's all music and the rules of playing music well...listening to your bandmates, playing w confidence, good tone, good intonation, dynamics, good groove...they are the basic tenets and bldg blocks to playing ALL instruments...to playing MUSIC. Once you get that wired, then it's just getting comfortable w the basic mechanics of the whatever instrument you're playing at the moment.
#288402 by Mordgeld
Wed Jun 27, 2018 9:45 pm
Planetguy wrote:
ok....damn semantics are raising their ugly heads so let me confirm we're on the same page here. when you say " So let's say you are in C Ionian, if you move the pattern so the root (C) is now on what was the second for the Ionian....

see.... i'm not sure how you mean "pattern" because as i see it the "pattern" changes (my def being "pattern" = intervals).

if however you just mean.... moving up the next EIGHT NOTE group (and THAT's what you are referring to as a "pattern") then you gottit! yes. move up one scale degree from ionian....that's dorian. move up another...that's phrygian, etc. rinse and repeat.

now as far as[i]"maintaining that MmmMMmd"[i] i take you to be referring to the chord sequence and not intervals...as in Maj chord followed by mi chord followed by mi chord, etc ...yes?

if so that "d" you have at the end i assume you refer to a diminished chord, yes? if so, that's actually a half diminished chord ...aka minor flat five.


Image

You see the pattern of dots (scale) listed for the Ionian scale there? In C Ionian, the white dot there represents the root C. Moving to the next mode, Dorian, puts you in Dm even though it is the same notes as CMaj starting on the D. (They helpfully made the D the white dot) This would be what you have laid out so far. If you took the C in each scale and made it the white dot, all these scales would be C Ionian. Now, if you take the first scale shown as Ionian and make the second the root and play that scale with the C in that position (essentially moving the whole scale toward the head-stock 1 step), that is C Dorian using the same scale. Make the third dot white instead and move the scale to make that the C and it is C Phrygian. All of these scale shapes contain the proper interval for each mode based on where the root is placed.

Yes, by MmmMMmd, I mean the chord sequence ending with the dim minor. My bad. I hope I have cleared up any confusion.
#288415 by Mordgeld
Wed Jun 27, 2018 11:35 pm
Planetguy wrote:...it's all music and the rules of playing music well...listening to your bandmates, playing w confidence, good tone, good intonation, dynamics, good groove...they are the basic tenets and bldg blocks to playing ALL instruments...to playing MUSIC. Once you get that wired, then it's just getting comfortable w the basic mechanics of the whatever instrument you're playing at the moment.


Yep. The singer I work with got tired of bassists not showing up. She's like, I already know the scales on keys, just show me where the notes start. I don't think she's going to play bass in the Iron Maiden song we cover but hey, if she can take on the parts of Steve Harris and Bruce Dickinson at the same time, well...
#288416 by Mordgeld
Wed Jun 27, 2018 11:35 pm
Planetguy wrote:Well done and clearly communicated!


Thank you! Does this mean I am not misguided in my understanding of the modes?
#288417 by Planetguy
Thu Jun 28, 2018 12:05 am
Sorry, I was distracted by a shiny object and then my wife yelled "SQUIRREL!".

Yes, as I understand you....you're asking if we took that same Dm dorian pattern and dropped it down 1 step so the first note is C...."would that be Cm dorian?"

that would indeed be correct and you'd be playing it out of Bb Maj. All the same relations would hold true there and whatever key you moved to.

are we on the same page? :D
#288422 by Mordgeld
Thu Jun 28, 2018 12:29 am
Planetguy wrote:Sorry, I was distracted by a shiny object and then my wife yelled "SQUIRREL!".

Yes, as I understand you....you're asking if we took that same Dm dorian pattern and dropped it down 1 step so the first note is C...."would that be Cm dorian?"

that would indeed be correct and you'd be playing it out of Bb Maj. All the same relations would hold true there and whatever key you moved to.

are we on the same page? :D


Not quite. Using C Ionian as the first pattern, if you find the C in any of those patterns and count it as the root and then shift the pattern to place the C where the D (the second) was previously, it makes that pattern Cm Dorian. Shifting any of the patterns to put the C where the E (the third) was will make it Cm Phrygian. And so on. The root placement defines the mode. Back to you...
#288423 by ANGELSSHOTGUN
Thu Jun 28, 2018 12:32 am
Planetguy wrote:
MikeTalbot wrote:
What happened to those great posts where we discussed scales and modes? It's not exactly like those topics can be said to be concluded simply because one of us says, "Yeah, cool..."

So can someone explain why there are three types of minor scales (natural, harmonic and melodic) and why we'd select one over the other? How does that affect the modes played against minors? (and poor dummy Mike - I'm
trying to understand from the perspective of guitar, bass and piano)

Talbot


Well, since your question was only met w more name calling and $hit slinging, let me take a stab at answering as best as I can.

I think it best to start with the naturally occurring different minor chords/scales/modes that you find diatonically appearing within the "parent" or "home" key that you find yourself playing in.

Let's work with the key of C Maj and a two octave C Maj scale to explore the different modes/scales/chords that lie within that set of notes.

we're gonna look at one octave "groups" . I'm gonna put a bracket around the first 8 notes like this:

[ C D E F G A B C ] D E F G A B C - within the bracket is a simple C Maj scale aka C Ionian mode

now we're gonna do the same for each of the seven letter names (notes) and each time we'll start on the next note than the previous scale /mode....

C [ D E F G A B C D ] E F G A B C within this bracket is a Dm scale, but not just any Dm scale...it's Dm dorian, the second mode of C MAJ

next we move to next starting point "E" :

C D [ E F G A B C D E] F G A B C this is an Em scale built on the third degree (note) of a C Maj scale aka Em Phygian (of interest here is the half step that immediately appears between the E and F notes.. a big characteristic of this mode)

now, you're on your own for the others! but if you do this same bit thru ALL the different eight note scale possibilities, you've covered all seven modes.

and without introducing ANY new notes you will have played SEVEN different scales that are really all the SAME scale but they just start and end in different places!

those seven scales will be

CMaj -ionian
Dm-dorian
Em-phrygian
FMaj-lydian
G7-mixolydian
Am-aeolian
Bmb5-locrian

notice that within that C maj (and EVERY major key) you have four minor scales and their respective chord voicings.....and they ALL are different!!!! yeah, they ALL have a minor third but they all have little subtle differences that are easy enough to figure out if you spend some time playing them and paying attention to the intervals as they unfold.

so, how do know which minor to use? well, you look at the key signature.....and that will tell you which to go with. just stick with the parent scale of the key you're playing in and you're golden.

hopefully that makes some sense.



I mean this seriously... That was one of the BEST and SIMPLE and CLEAR EXPLANATIONS, any one could ever present.

EXCELLENT!

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 69 guests